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Post by Tomcakes on Sept 5, 2007 19:06:27 GMT
However, politics being politics, Wembley Park being a Jubilee line station will often not provide staff to detrain. Isn't that being very petty - they're station staff, they're supposed to help detraining trains! I do hope this isn't another "Oh well under PPP it's a different set of beancounters so we won't help them" scenario. |
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Post by c5 on Sept 5, 2007 19:25:26 GMT
Why not detrain at Wembley instead of Harrow, then at least the punters have more options! As you can easily shut wembley down if you have a train with the stick off going nowhere. Thats even with the new point work! Yeah, waste of time effort and money that is... They didnt even touch the locking in the IMR, so there is ....errr... no actual improvement! |
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Post by superteacher on Sept 5, 2007 21:39:05 GMT
As you can easily shut wembley down if you have a train with the stick off going nowhere. Thats even with the new point work! Yeah, waste of time effort and money that is... They didnt even touch the locking in the IMR, so there is ....errr... no actual improvement! Perhaps this will be addressed when the area is resignalled. |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Sept 6, 2007 8:35:16 GMT
On a tangent, can Willesden Green and West Hampstead sidings now take 8 car mets?
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Post by citysig on Sept 6, 2007 9:25:06 GMT
With regard to Wembley, I am involved in discussions related to most of the points raised. The Service Recovery Plan is under review, and the usual manner of tipping out at Harrow will be changed. The staffing / station ownership issues are to be addressed. The locking wasn't changed when they replaced the section of track to the depot, but changes will be occuring in the near future - long before the resignalling. On a tangent, can Willesden Green and West Hampstead sidings now take 8 car mets? Willesden always could, West Hampstead never could / will. |
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Post by superteacher on Sept 6, 2007 21:59:10 GMT
I believe that they had to do some work so that West Hampstead siding could accomodate the Jubilee trains once they went from 6 to 7 cars.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2007 1:07:35 GMT
They demolished the northern end of the siding and extended it by about 20 to 40 feet, to fit in the spring buffers and track arrestors - the length of the original siding from point blade tip to rail tip was actually long enough to fit a 7 car train, but the need for buffers and overrun protection restricted it to 6.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2007 14:03:11 GMT
I also assume that there is no logical reason to send trains back via the North Curve to Watford? What would it achieve except to enable a Watford service to operate? Well if you can't get your Watford trains up to Watford (eg because of a failure at the junction) but you can get them to Rickmansworth, they can reverse at Ricky, round to Watford then back south. Thus maintaining some kind of Watford service. |
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Post by Chris M on Sept 7, 2007 16:31:10 GMT
Would there ever be an occasion when a Watford-Amersham service would run - e.g. perhaps if there was a problem meaning there was no electricity available south of Moor Park, but the Chiltern diesels could still run?
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Post by c5 on Sept 7, 2007 16:38:59 GMT
Would there ever be an occasion when a Watford-Amersham service would run - e.g. perhaps if there was a problem meaning there was no electricity available south of Moor Park, but the Chiltern diesels could still run? During certain shutdowns (say at Northwood on the local), there could be a shuttle to Watford reversing at Rickmansworth, indeed it has been done. Also during the peak if the train is full and there is a problem, it has been sent from London to Watford via Rickmansworth. There was also a day when it ran as a 3 train Watford - Amersham shuttle, can't recall why this was though. So yes it is done! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2007 16:57:19 GMT
There was also a day when it ran as a 3 train Watford - Amersham shuttle, can't recall why this was though. So yes it is done! They used to do this when there was track replacement work on the local between North Harrow and Pinner IIRC 3 trains done Watford - Amersham shuttles and 2 trains done Chesham - Northwood shuttles. |
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Post by c5 on Sept 7, 2007 17:06:00 GMT
There was also a day when it ran as a 3 train Watford - Amersham shuttle, can't recall why this was though. So yes it is done! They used to do this when there was track replacement work on the local between North Harrow and Pinner IIRC 3 trains done Watford - Amersham shuttles and 2 trains done Chesham - Northwood shuttles. Before my time, that Jim  ;D ;D When was this? Strange Shuttle services are often best during a failure related shutdown! |
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Post by Harsig on Sept 7, 2007 17:25:44 GMT
They used to do this when there was track replacement work on the local between North Harrow and Pinner IIRC 3 trains done Watford - Amersham shuttles and 2 trains done Chesham - Northwood shuttles. Before my time, that Jim ;D ;D When was this? Strange Shuttle services are often best during a failure related shutdown! I do recall services 10 - 15 years ago when TRP (as it then was) was taking place on the local lines between Moor Park and Pinner. The normal fast Amersham service was provided via the Main Lines (numbered 001 to 005) and the Chesham & Watford branches were served by a two train Chesham - Watford Shuttle at 30 minute intervals (numbered 006 & 007) This of course was in the days before Met trains were numbered in the 400 range. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2007 20:08:01 GMT
They used to do this when there was track replacement work on the local between North Harrow and Pinner IIRC 3 trains done Watford - Amersham shuttles and 2 trains done Chesham - Northwood shuttles. Before my time, that Jim ;D ;D When was this? Strange Shuttle services are often best during a failure related shutdown! It was about 5 or 6 years back. Looking at Harsigs post, it might have been Amersham - Northwood and Chesham - Watford. |
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Post by c5 on Sept 11, 2007 15:21:14 GMT
I understand that there were some trains running to Watford via the north curve during this mornings peak.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2007 17:22:08 GMT
Yes the brand new points failed at Watford South Jn. These points lie differently to the old ones, so there was a different effect to the service.
Basically you need them reverse to run via the NBLL to Watford, and they failed to reverse... This meant that services couldn't run down the SBML (for some reason).
Effects on the service was that the Chiltern service was suspended, SB trains had to run fast via the LL. NB trains couldn't get to Watford. Shuttle service Ricky - Watford in place.
Sorry thats not too detailed, not exactly sure the exact situation with the locking on the new junction.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2007 17:32:09 GMT
Can someone generate a diagram of the junction? I'm not too sure how the layout has changed.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2007 17:59:00 GMT
Just as an aside, Chris M mentioned that if the was no traction current south of Moor Park we could carry on running the diesel service.
The protection of staff on track when leaving traffic hours and starting engineering hours relies on traction current. When a Protection Master see's the last train(s) run through the area he is working in, he will place a device on the track (CRID) which indicates to him when traction current has gone off. When it does go off, it indicates to him that it is now engineering hours.
For that reason, even if it is 0900 in the morning I don't believe they would allow diesel trains to run without traction current.
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Post by c5 on Sept 11, 2007 18:00:57 GMT
Just as an aside, Chris M mentioned that if the was no traction current south of Moor Park we could carry on running the diesel service. The protection of staff on track when leaving traffic hours and starting engineering hours relies on traction current. When a Protection Master see's the last train(s) run through the area he is working in, he will place a device on the track (CRID) which indicates to him when traction current has gone off. When it does go off, it indicates to him that it is now engineering hours. For that reason, even if it is 0900 in the morning I don't believe they would allow diesel trains to run without traction current. No trains can run unless current is switched on, with the exception of Engineering Works and the like. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2007 0:03:33 GMT
Yes the brand new points failed at Watford South Jn. These points lie differently to the old ones, so there was a different effect to the service. Basically you need them reverse to run via the NBLL to Watford, and they failed to reverse... This meant that services couldn't run down the SBML (for some reason). Effects on the service was that the Chiltern service was suspended, SB trains had to run fast via the LL. NB trains couldn't get to Watford. Shuttle service Ricky - Watford in place. Sorry thats not too detailed, not exactly sure the exact situation with the locking on the new junction. my sympathies were with the overnight signaller at amersham who didn't know what had to be done with the 'unwanted' chilterns which were already running quite late because of network rail signal problems approaching amersham the poor b*****d only slept 3 hours for the last 48 hours as well! still could've been on at ricky and juggling both the watford services and ex amersham's at watford!!! |
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Post by citysig on Sept 12, 2007 18:32:14 GMT
Basically you need them reverse to run via the NBLL to Watford, and they failed to reverse... This meant that services couldn't run down the SBML (for some reason). I had heard they failed to normalise. Not sure if this was the case, but would certainly account for some of the difficulty to run down the main. The whole event certainly shafted the southbound Met service, and some of our regular reverse points (see, I can stay on thread  ) were employed throughout the morning. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2007 7:06:30 GMT
My mistake...
The area confuses me now and its difficult to tell from the new diagram which way the points lie.
The reason I'm confused most is that we used to get the harbour lights to go from the NBLL to the NBML, you now get harbour lights to go to Watford. Is this abnormal on a signal with only 2 routes? I would have thought you would get a straight green for the normal and the harbour for the reverse..
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2007 7:16:22 GMT
was on yesterday and took the junction out of auto to cross 1 to and from the local line ad i absoleutly crapped myself lol
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Post by citysig on Sept 14, 2007 13:53:15 GMT
The reason I'm confused most is that we used to get the harbour lights to go from the NBLL to the NBML, you now get harbour lights to go to Watford. Is this abnormal on a signal with only 2 routes? I would have thought you would get a straight green for the normal and the harbour for the reverse.. My colleague Harsig probably has the official answer, and rest assured it's bound to be for very good reason they have it set that way. Speed control is normally favourite. There are other locations where the harbour lights are for the "normal" route. OB2 between Liverpool Street and Aldgate East is one example. The "normal/straight" route is towards Aldgate East, but harbour lights are displayed. was on yesterday and took the junction out of auto to cross 1 to and from the local line ad i absoleutly crapped myself lol Weren't on this morning when there were more problems were you ;D |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2007 15:17:34 GMT
not this morning but i recently had 61 points fail to reverse while i was on, curses to this new junction not to mention an error in planning which i have been made aware of. re lloyd it's the other way round, you used to have an approach control going to watford with the harbour light, now as watford trains can cross the junction at a faster speed they can take a straight route, ll to ml trains however previously got a straight run but now the opposite is in effect, hth
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2007 17:34:24 GMT
Quite a major error in planning as well....  |
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Post by trc666 on Sept 15, 2007 12:36:40 GMT
Mets are terminating at Northwood this weekend. What end do they actually reverse, is there a crossover south/east of the station or is it a WB - EB shunt?
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Post by Oracle on Sept 15, 2007 13:01:48 GMT
 The #-over used to be at the north end of the station, controlled by a signal box, as evidenced by this circa 1961 shot showing the wrong-wroad starter SEMPAPHORE. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2007 16:37:56 GMT
The cross over is actually south of the station (well it is now anyway, obviously not in 1961!). Northwood is in fact quite a flexable little area.
You can reverse:
south to north via the mainline shunt
south to north via the sidings
north to south via the platform
Very handy if the service goes wrong at Harrow.
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Post by Colin on Sept 15, 2007 17:11:58 GMT
I would have thought you would get a straight green for the normal and the harbour for the reverse.. Whilst I'm not familiar with the area in question; basic signalling principles, as I understand them, dictate that the route with the lowest permitted line speed will always get the junction route indicator. So by definition, the route with a higher permitted line speed will always get the straight green. |
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) were employed throughout the morning.
