Late Running Postponed....

all i can say is a sarcastic boo hoo, i have never understood the justification of later running, personally with working the night shift it makes no difference to me but thinking about people trying to get to thier jobs early on the weekends makes me feel for them.

I think the 'late running' timetables were due to start 20 May, the 16th is a Wednesday.

I hope so, but don't bank on it.

Agreed - every tube station should have a direct Night bus link into/ out of Central London.

Already happens on the Northern.

The Night Bus should run between last/ first trains.

Simpler, easier, friendlier

Well for Chesham, I don't suppose a taxi from Amersham or Chalfont would cost more than a couple of quid? How late/early do the Chilterns run?

Its been a tumultuous few weeks in LU when questions began to be asked about the possibility of postponing extended hours in the backdrop of a lack of widespread union agreements. The date for issuing all the formal contractual notifications for the new timetables (typically around 3 months out) was actually this Friday! So the mayor/LU cut it very fine – delayed it till almost the last possible moment.

All the work that’s gone into the new working timetables has now been shelved – but in my view, its more liked its been binned. The planning, compilation of duty sheets, timetables, station rosters, revised sleet arrangements, planning on revising night bus services, calculation of revised traction current times etc…all seems to be wasted now. A lot of working hours were invested into this from many people. They talk about deferring the late running project rather than the cancellation of it, but I can’t really see the two big unions accepting it. Especially based on the overnight running on new years, how it was widely seen as one of the worse nights ever to manage with the massive number of assaults, vandalism and alcohol fuelled incidents.

LU took a massive gamble in proceeding with extended hours to the last possible moment without any firm union agreement early on. They lost the gamble and now several departments will have to pick up the pieces. This opens up some interesting problems that need to be resolved.

Most lines can plod along with their current timetables. But the Northern, Jubilee and Victoria Line timetable changes also included service level changes and upgrade enablers. The problem with the new timetables is the Saturdays service. The Fridays timetable with the extra half hour added on, can now be scrapped as they just use the original Mons – Thurs timetable. The Sundays timetable can also be used as the first and lasts were never changed. The Saturdays file needs to be recompiled to ‘undo’ the extended hours bit of an hour later start and half hour later finish. And a new duty sheet with it, and all the other extras. So I’d expect to see the Northern and Victoria Lines to get their new timetables this year, but not at May – maybe from autumn onwards.

The Jubilee Line is more complicated, as the new timetable worked around the new Met line timetable. (Jubilee and Met access Neasden Depot) Now the Met Line is using the old timetable, this is not fully compatible with the new Jubilee Line timetable. And I think even some East London Line stock paths to/from Neasden, had to be changed to accommodate the new Jubilee timetable, just to throw in the mix! So reissuing the new Jubilee Line timetable without the extended hours in it, is more problematic and will drag on for some time.

Also, with the Bakerloo and District Line sharing Network Rail tracks, I can imagine Network Rail going crazy when they find out they will have to change their timetable records at short notice!

Work had already begun on some of the engineering work timetables with the revised Saturday hours that took place after May – that’s now wasted. Some have to be redone urgently, but actually for many others, they can now revert to off the shelf notices now that already exist.

The next round of working timetables after extended hours – the Picc was due one in January 2008 for the opening of T5, Northern Line with further reliability works (possible reduction or elimination of stepping back with Tooting Broadway reversers) and Jubilee Line (just a complete rewrite!) – well the Fridays and Saturdays part of that is uncertain as no one knows whether extended hours will be back in the limelight from early 2008 or not.

Mods feel free to edit or even remove! I hope I’ve not divulged any sensitive information here – just more background stuff about whats happening timetable wise.

And of course, the only time people found out about it was on the BBC News website rather than an employee bulletin!

I wish it were that simple! But you have got the thrust of it. If I understand it correctly, you're saying the period between A and B is the main pattern of service, and the period of A and the period after B are the transitions building into/dropping out of that service.

You're saying though produce two seperate timetables with different first and last trains. Thats effectively doubling the workload. Compiling timetables is not actually the most time consuming but i would suggest its a couple of weeks work doing a good job with no other work on - its much more than just putting in trips, there's alot of other work which is too long winded to explain here - (the timetable software at present is old as well which doesn't help); when you want to do that for ALL lines, and this is on top of all current workload - then you have to ask whether this is a fair use of resources. And producing timetables is only half the story, you then have to get feedback from various managment, S+SD, infracos etc...invariably further changes are made and can drag the production process onwards.

But then there's the duty sheets to compile on top of the timetable. Having a core central section of timetable which doesn't have those build up/ramp down transitions where trains are started/stabled into service - well you can't compile a duty sheet as you have no start/stable times to work with. I believe thats more time consuming and more attention is needed to make sure fair rosters are created as far as possible.

The other thing you mentioned was about leaving it to the last possible moment. Short notice timetables can be knocked up quickly for emergencies. But can't be done regularly. Going by whats happened with extended hours, say if a core pattern of service was just compiled, and LU only decided today not to do extended hours, well that would have way too late to implement the timetables from May onwards for every single line.

BTW - I'm in no way saying timetables are the be all and end all of LU operations! The cancellation (I mean deferral!) of extended hours will have impacted on many other areas of LU as well.

Completely in agreement with Colin - a fascinating insight into the skill!

TBH I think one of Ken's mistakes was to effectively say that there 'will be later running from May 2007' rather than 'we will look into the feasibility of later running'. He'd dug a pretty big hole for himself and now has to suffer the loss of face resulting from the 'postponement' - I saw the news bulletin on TV last night when I got home and it seems like he was doing the classic 'blame the unions' routine whereas in reality I don't think he had any idea about exactly how much work was involved in his 'cunning plan'!

But my personal objection was always (as has been voiced already) the transporting of the late night excessives to the detriment of the Workers and for example on the Picc the visitors trying to get the Heathrow for early flights!

Returning to the original late running question - early weekend morning Underground services are empty; late weekend evening Underground service are rammed. Surely it makes sense to run services when people want to travel, rather than when they don't?

And since there is no road congestion on early weekend mornings, there is no obstacle to prevent people who do need to be at work getting buses (which would also prove more cost-effective for lower-paid shift workers...)

So with the thing about all the drunks etc why don't they just introduce earlier running instead? ;D
I'm sure there will be plenty of drivers willing to do this and at the same time you eliminate half of the problem.
Makes sense to me but then again I'm only an Operator I don't know anything

If I gave the impression that I think that the minority of drunks late at night are the norm, then I'll correct that and say the vast majority of our patrons are a pleasure to work for and give us no trouble whatsoever. However the minority make a greater impression. No I didn't mean 'a' bus, unless of course only one comes along. But by the time I'm at Mile End I've got a jammed packed train. How many buses will suffice? Tube lines 'dead dead dead' until 9am Sat/Sun? Which ones? 0540 Sat off Leytonstone - busy, Leyton - standing room only, Stratford - connection with ONE services, platform jammed - Mile end the same, Liverpool Street...!.... It calms down a little after that, but throughout it's busy busy busy...........and it's getting busier...........Sorry, but I don't see the 'drinking out industry' as more important than the early morning workers.

While I'm sure the maths does add up, the last trains are indeed well used, as are the first trains.

However the majority of users of the last trains are on such a service through a choice. Granted not everyone but I would estimate a high percentage.

Those users on the first trains are often the opposite, they use the first trains to get somewhere usually work or perhaps a flight. Rarely do people chose to get a first train. Granted some people would simply switch to the buses if the first train was later, but the same argument could be used for the last trains as well.

The mayor has indicated that the extra 30 mins drinking time at the weekend is more important than those wishing to get to work on a Saturday morning. Remember that at the next mayoral elections.

But if you're flying out at the weekend, unless it's a Sunday for Monday flight (which is unlikely to be first thing in the morning), you're almost certainly flying for pleasure. Which puts you in exactly the same situation as people who are drinking for pleasure...



I will - it's another reason why he's getting my vote.

The one thing supporters of late (rather than early) running have left out is that, at the end of it, ignore the money, LU is contracted to provide a PUBLIC SERVICE, primarily (but not exclusively) for London residents and workers. That was why it started.

And stopping early trains for workers is NOT (continuing to) providing a public service. I rest my case.