towerman
My status is now now widower
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Post by towerman on Aug 16, 2005 19:08:23 GMT
I know citysig will probably shoot me down in flames over this but when I was on the Met in the 70's when the Met ran through the city in the peaks it was Watford-Moorgate,Amersham/Chesham-Liverpool St and Uxbridge-Algate,as it is the least intensive of the three services can't the Amersham/Chesham service reverse at Moorgate to take some of the pressure off of Aldgate?
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Post by citysig on Aug 16, 2005 19:37:16 GMT
Where's my flame thrower ;D
In the halcyon days of only running the Mets in the peak (and getting the city area back to time off-peak) I would have agreed.
However, to turn an A-stock at Moorgate costs the service up to 3 minutes on both east and west. They are just too old, heavy and slow to make the move without shutting everything else down. Much better to run them onto Aldgate, or turn them back at Baker Street.
It's still only during the peak the Amersham/Watford service runs to the city anyway. When everything else runs ok, the Met does too. It does tend to get in the way of everything (and with every other train being a Met during the peak it's bound to) but on the whole the service itself performs well.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2005 21:06:29 GMT
Just out of curiousity, why was Moorgate rebuilt with such a restrictive layout? Surely in those days someone would have envisioned the hair-trigger traffic jam that the upper Circle could become, and realized that having a pair of central reversing roads to supplement the pair at Aldgate could be useful...
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Post by citysig on Aug 17, 2005 15:31:51 GMT
If we haven't had one in the past (which I think we have) I am certain you have a better layout ;D It's not all that bad. The C-stock cause much less delay when using it. However, the problem lies in the signalling in the area. On the westbound, in order to get one out of either bay road or from the main platform, the train ahead must be at Barbican. If this distance was shorter, the one out of the bay could be slid out before the next one arrives alongside in the main platform. On the east, a train cannot leave Barbican until the one ahead is almost at Moorgate. Not so much a delay when the train ahead is heading on to Aldgate, but when the train ahead is going to the bay, it's a long drawn-out process of approach control signals, slow crossing-over and eventual berthing in the platform - after which the Barbican station starter will clear! There is quite a long "trail" after leaving the main until you reach the bay platforms. A little tightening of the signalling here could mean getting the route back behind a bay-road train a lot sooner, and obviously clear the main. There are plans to do a fair bit of re-signalling in the not too distant future, and maybe this will be included (though I doubt it, as most of the "improvements" will be to increase overlaps and the like.)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2005 19:48:50 GMT
If we haven't had one in the past (which I think we have) I am certain you have a better layout ;D I have lots of layouts, but they involve much fun with the walls between the Met lines and the Widened lines It's not all that bad. The C-stock cause much less delay when using it. However, the problem lies in the signalling in the area. On the westbound, in order to get one out of either bay road or from the main platform, the train ahead must be at Barbican. If this distance was shorter, the one out of the bay could be slid out before the next one arrives alongside in the main platform. On the east, a train cannot leave Barbican until the one ahead is almost at Moorgate. Not so much a delay when the train ahead is heading on to Aldgate, but when the train ahead is going to the bay, it's a long drawn-out process of approach control signals, slow crossing-over and eventual berthing in the platform - after which the Barbican station starter will clear! Ugh! I always thought that the sentry in the WB platform allowed for a route to be set out of the bays onto the WB, or a route set from the EB into the bays, with a train approaching on the WB! Why bother installing a sentry if a train on the main needs to be brought to a stand anyway in order to let something out of the bay? It seems to me that that as you said, the best way to fix this is to install more home signals on the EB and relock the sentry on the WB to do what you would expect it to do... Just out of curiosity, would longer crossovers (something allowing 5mph or so beyond the existing limit) make a difference? There is quite a long "trail" after leaving the main until you reach the bay platforms. A little tightening of the signalling here could mean getting the route back behind a bay-road train a lot sooner, and obviously clear the main. There are plans to do a fair bit of re-signalling in the not too distant future, and maybe this will be included (though I doubt it, as most of the "improvements" will be to increase overlaps and the like.) Indeed. Perhaps the new and improved HMRI will allow something a little more flexible to the built.
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Post by Harsig on Aug 18, 2005 9:38:36 GMT
If we haven't had one in the past (which I think we have) I am certain you have a better layout ;D I have lots of layouts, but they involve much fun with the walls between the Met lines and the Widened lines Ugh! I always thought that the sentry in the WB platform allowed for a route to be set out of the bays onto the WB, or a route set from the EB into the bays, with a train approaching on the WB! Why bother installing a sentry if a train on the main needs to be brought to a stand anyway in order to let something out of the bay? That is exactly what it does do. The point Citysig was trying to make is that after a train has left Moorgate westbound platform the next one, whether from the bay platforms or the westbound platform, cannot leave until the first train has reached Barbican. By the time this has happened it is perfectly possible for a second train to have fully arrived in Moorgate westbound platform and be ready to depart, meaning that it will be delayed if one is let out of the bay platforms.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2005 11:13:43 GMT
That is exactly what it does do. The point Citysig was trying to make is that after a train has left Moorgate westbound platform the next one, whether from the bay platforms or the westbound platform, cannot leave until the first train has reached Barbican. By the time this has happened it is perfectly possible for a second train to have fully arrived in Moorgate westbound platform and be ready to depart, meaning that it will be delayed if one is let out of the bay platforms. I seem to have misunderstood the usage of a sentry then. I always figured that a sentry's purpose was to extend the overlap of a junction in such a way that a train could approach said junction as another train was using it. In this case I figured that the sentry was there to permit a train to enter the WB platform whilst another train left the bay roads and yet another train had passed beyond the range of the track circuits over the points at the west of the station.
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Post by Harsig on Aug 18, 2005 11:37:33 GMT
That is exactly what it does do. The point Citysig was trying to make is that after a train has left Moorgate westbound platform the next one, whether from the bay platforms or the westbound platform, cannot leave until the first train has reached Barbican. By the time this has happened it is perfectly possible for a second train to have fully arrived in Moorgate westbound platform and be ready to depart, meaning that it will be delayed if one is let out of the bay platforms. I seem to have misunderstood the usage of a sentry then. I always figured that a sentry's purpose was to extend the overlap of a junction in such a way that a train could approach said junction as another train was using it. In this case I figured that the sentry was there to permit a train to enter the WB platform whilst another train left the bay roads and yet another train had passed beyond the range of the track circuits over the points at the west of the station. I think you are still missing the point, which is that while the draw up signal OE260 does exactly what you think it does, ie it allows trains to approach signal OE26 when there is only a reduced overlap available beyond the latter signal, it is entirely irrelevant to the point Citysig was making which related to the operation of the station starters OE26,OE28 & OE29 themselves.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2005 12:55:55 GMT
Ahhhhh. I see it now.
Basically the problem is that there are not enough signals between the starters, the end of the track circuits reading over the points and Barbican WB. Right?
Or have I misunderstood again?
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Post by Harsig on Aug 18, 2005 18:09:35 GMT
Ahhhhh. I see it now. Basically the problem is that there are not enough signals between the starters, the end of the track circuits reading over the points and Barbican WB. Right? Or have I misunderstood again? Now you are on the right lines.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2005 9:25:55 GMT
So what is the layout at Moorgate anyway? How many signals are there between the track circuits and Barbican?
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Post by citysig on Aug 19, 2005 13:23:49 GMT
Given what you've learned over the months, and given what's been said here, I am sure you can work out how many signals are between Moorgate and Barbican ;D
I would go into detail and re-produce a diagram of the current area, but with the present dark cloud hanging over the forum (re what we should and should not say) I will refrain from it in case a nasty person decides to target there rather than somewhere else. When they re-signal it, we'll post the old layout.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2005 15:11:11 GMT
Thanks for the vote of confidence I was more curious about how many levers the IMR has - I banged something out that used 16 levers for Moorgate itself, with three home signals and an auto between Barbican WB and the points. I'll check my Met Main drivers' eye view for more info.
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Post by Harsig on Aug 20, 2005 10:18:05 GMT
Thanks for the vote of confidence I was more curious about how many levers the IMR has - I banged something out that used 16 levers for Moorgate itself, with three home signals and an auto between Barbican WB and the points. I'll check my Met Main drivers' eye view for more info. The answer is(or at least was at the time of commissioning) 48. There would have been a number of spares. Levers in the range 1-24 controlled the widened line platforms while 25-48 controlled the circle line side,
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