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Post by david3383 on Feb 10, 2008 17:55:16 GMT
With the Thameslink Programme (formerly Thameslink 2000) going ahead, what will happen to the train service on the Northern City Line (Finsbury Park-Moorgate)?
Will the current service continue or will First Capital Connect withdraw Moorgate NCL trains and just run services to City Thameslink, Blackfriars and beyond?
If FCC withdraw Moorgate NCL trains, will the NCL close completely or could London Underground have the line back and rebuild the Finsbury Park-Highgate and Highgate-Ally Pally lines? Maybe this could be a "new" line: the Muswell line, anyone?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2008 18:02:56 GMT
The Moorgate Line carries a lot of passengers and the number of trains running down that route probably couldn't fit down the Thameslink Line.
Also, on the GNE Line the majority of people leave the train at Moorgate. City Thameslink is quite a distance from Moorgate and there would be very long dwell times at City Thameslink.
There is no point in getting rid of this link unless there are concrete plans for its use for a Northern Line relief route (which it is already actually) or it is linked to a Muswell Hill Line (which is pretty improbable at the moment)
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Post by david3383 on Feb 10, 2008 18:20:04 GMT
Ah, thanks for that, Rob!
Yes, City Thameslink is indeed a long way from Moorgate and if FCC withdrew its services on the NCL, there would be a lot more people changing from FCC at St Pancras Low Level to the Northern line or Circle/H&C/Met at Kings Cross St Pancras in order to reach the Moorgate area or there would be people changing at Finsbury Park onto the Muswell line.
Also, you're probably right in saying that the Thameslink lines through St P, City Thameslink and Blackfriars couldn't accommodate the GNE services as well as the current Thameslink services and the Peterborough and Cambridge/King's Lynn ones.
As for the NCL, it is eerily quiet during weekday off-peak hours although the service is more frequent than the District line Olympia shuttle. 6tph (every 10 mins) as opposed to 4tph (every 15 mins).
Finally, I have read that Haringey Council wouldn't welcome the rebuilding of the FP-Highgate and Highgate-Ally Pally lines as that would get rid of the Parkland Walk, an amenity that Haringey is very proud of.
On the other hand, there has been a campaign (The Muswell Hill Metro Group) to reinstate the Highgate-Ally Pally line going for years....
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metman
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Post by metman on Feb 10, 2008 18:49:08 GMT
Possible tramway route?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2008 21:18:42 GMT
If they could take the Parkland Walk back it would be much like the Croydon Tramlink as it would use abandoned railway land. There would be a few areas where this would be difficult.
The point was that people could take a train into the city from Muswell Hill, but it could be a solution.
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metman
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Post by metman on Feb 10, 2008 23:21:13 GMT
Well they could do it, but the section between Finsbury Pk and Highgate has been built on but the Highgate-Ally Pali section isn't to bad. It would be easier to run this branch onto the North London line (or is it the Goblin?) which it crosses, where it would terminate is another matter!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2008 12:09:51 GMT
Well they could do it, but the section between Finsbury Pk and Highgate has been built on but the Highgate-Ally Pali section isn't to bad. It would be easier to run this branch onto the North London line (or is it the Goblin?) which it crosses, where it would terminate is another matter! The line has not been built on. I like the idea of a junction onto the GOBLIN, but there is quite a difference in the height between the two lines. The GOBLIN has a road above it and then the Parkland walk is above that again. Where it would terminate would be quite simple in my opinion. via South Tottenham and Lea Bridge to Stratford or Liverpool St. Or even Lea Bridge and then westbound onto the North london Line!
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Post by metman on Feb 11, 2008 12:50:05 GMT
If it could get to Liverpool Street it would be excellent! I had a look on Google maps and the Stroud Green section is ok, but the site of Cranley Gardens has been built on.
If Cranley Gardens could be sorted out, a route such as Ally Pali-Muswell Hill-Cranley Gardens-Highgate(High Level [change for Northern Line])-Crouch End-Stroud Green-Finsbury Park (change for FCC) and then using the single track curve (doubled) running round the back of Drayton Park (rebuilding the whole station for good measure) through that long tunnel and onto the North London railway!
The destination is optional: Stratford NLL, Dalston Junction, Liverpool Street via London Fields or on to the ELLx four tracking the Kingsland Viaduct to Hoxton or beyond?
If only Broad St was still open....
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2008 13:17:07 GMT
The problem with Finsbury Park is getting across the ECML
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Post by metman on Feb 11, 2008 13:24:31 GMT
Yes, it is somewhat a blockade isn't it! But with a slight rejig of the lines at Finsbury Park and the addition of one extra where there is room, might make it possible.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2008 18:51:33 GMT
The plan is for fast services (Peterborough and King's Lynn) along the Northern City Line to take the Thameslink route, while the slow services, which are the ones running to Moorgate (barring weekend/late evening slow services to King's Cross and fast peak services to Moorgate). The planned service pattern, according to Always Touch Out, is:
Bedford - London Bridge - Brighton (4tph)
Bedford - London Bridge - Dartford (4tph) via Sidcup (2tph) via Bexley (2tph)
Luton - Elephant & Castle - Sutton, Wimbledon (4tph) clockwise via Sutton then Wimbledon (2tph) anticlockwise via Wimbledon then Sutton (2tph)
St Albans - Elephant & Castle - Sevenoaks (2tph)
Peterborough - London Bridge - Horsham / East Grinstead (4tph) Horsham, inc Gatwick Airport (2tph) East Grinstead (2tph)
King's Lynn - London Bridge - Sevenoaks - Ashford (2tph)
Cambridge - London Bridge - Eastbourne / Littlehampton (2tph) Eastbourne (1tph) Littlehampton (1tph)
Letchworth - London Bridge - Guildford (2tph)
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Post by david3383 on Feb 12, 2008 20:22:52 GMT
sweek, the Peterborough and King's Lynn services don't use the Northern City Line.
The NCL is the line between Finsbury Park and Moorgate and is currently used by the slow FCC GNE services.
Anyway, I take it from sweek's post that FCC will not withdraw the Moorgate services once the Thameslink Programme is up and running?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2008 13:12:41 GMT
sweek, the Peterborough and King's Lynn services don't use the Northern City Line. The NCL is the line between Finsbury Park and Moorgate and is currently used by the slow FCC GNE services. Anyway, I take it from sweek's post that FCC will not withdraw the Moorgate services once the Thameslink Programme is up and running? Ah, sorry, I thought that the lines it connects with north of Finsbury Park are also considered to be the Northern City Line. It does not change the rest of the post, though, at is does mean that fast services should be going via Thameslink while the slow services keep going onto the Northern City. I really can't imagine them closing the Northern City.
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Post by metman on Feb 13, 2008 18:12:54 GMT
They won't I'm sure. The local trains from Moorgate serve places like Welwyn, Hertford North and Gorden Hill.
Moorgate is going very very soon because the junction will be removed to lengthen the platforms to 12 cars.
Which trains are going to operate the 2000 service? They will have to be dual-voltage. The current trains in use on FCC are a real mix aren't they! 313:Moorgate/KX-Welwyn/Hertford 365:KX-Peterboro'/Kings Lynn 317:Moorgate-Bedford &KX-Peterboro'/Cambridge 319:Bedford/Brighton.
From what I know: the 365s are dual voltage, but have no shoebeams-they would be fitted I guess, the 319 are currently suitable, the 313s are old but provide a recent local service and hopefully will get the Overgrounds 313s in 2009-10. This leaves the 317/1s! They operate the Kings Cross-GN services. Will these remain the mainstay of Kings Cross leaving all the 365s to run thru to Southern England?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2008 18:39:45 GMT
I thought they were getting new trains for the 2000 service?
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Post by cetacean on Feb 13, 2008 23:09:57 GMT
Yeah, they're getting a whole new fleet by 2015, but there'll be all sorts in use before then. Thameslink probably won't include the Moorgate inner-suburban service at all (and the 313s will soldier on), but it's not quite 100% definite yet.
(The line north of Finsbury Park is the East Coast Main Line, though the London commuter services are known as "Great Northern" and have been for very long time. Some of the stations have "Great Northern Electrics" signs around, especially in the LUL areas)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2008 23:15:43 GMT
Finsbury Park has a large sign saying "Great Northern Electrics"
Presumably the 319s released by Thameslink can go round to replace earlier Mk3 based units such as the 313-317s
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Post by metman on Feb 14, 2008 0:10:31 GMT
The problem is that 8 cars of 319 are too long for the GN&C platforms! The 313s can run as 3+3 and fit in on the Moorgate service. What will happen to the existing trains? Surely the 317s won't be scrapped, they're not that old! Perhaps they can join the 317/2 on the WAGN services out of Liverpool Street. Where will the 365s go? I think personally, if the the 365s can have show beams fitted, they can run the thru services to Kent/Surry etc.
It's strange how NR trains don't last as long as LU trains! Nothing of even a similar age is still really operating (except maybe Chiltern's 121) like the A stock, and even the C stock is far older than most NR trains!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2008 0:18:44 GMT
It's strange how NR trains don't last as long as LU trains! Nothing of even a similar age is still really operating (except maybe Chiltern's 121) like the A stock, and even the C stock is far older than most NR trains! That's partly because the A stock and C stock are perfectly suited for what they do and were built to do a rather specialised job. That and the fact that A stock isn't obsolete as Underground train design hasn't evolved a huge amount since then. Slam door stock on NR was obsolete when they were withdrawn but A stock is still good at what it does.
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Post by metman on Feb 14, 2008 0:48:35 GMT
Well said that man!
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Post by cetacean on Feb 14, 2008 10:03:04 GMT
Yeah, there are no imminent plans to scrap anything that survived the slam-door kill off. There's talk of replacing various non-313 PEP stocks (314/315/507/8 - Glasgow, East London and Liverpool commuter stock), but that'll take a while and may not lead to their scrapping. Even the Pacers seem safe in the short term. The 317s certainly are.
The oldest trains are the 313s and HSTs built ca. 1976, and they aren't going anywhere for a good decade. A lot of them will hit the 40 year mark easily.
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Post by metman on Feb 14, 2008 12:01:55 GMT
Good. I really like these trains too. Can't say that includes the Pacers, but there you are!
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