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Post by tubeprune on Nov 3, 2006 10:53:46 GMT
There was a case of wrong side opening at Bank (Central Line) yesterday evening. I thought the PAC loops were supposed to prevent this. Does this mean that they don't all work?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2006 12:04:15 GMT
If the PAC loop fails then BAET would undoubtedly be out and about, as they are part of the safety-critical transmission of ATO map data to the train for the next station-to-station traversal.
I think it's far more likely that there was a slight PAC underrun/overrun behind the starter signal (thus no SPAD), thus requiring the use of the CSDE override equivalent on the 1992TS. If this is the case, then perhaps the wrong mushroom was used.
Needs more ATO!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2006 13:46:06 GMT
I think it's far more likely that there was a slight PAC underrun/overrun behind the starter signal (thus no SPAD), thus requiring the use of the CSDE override equivalent on the 1992TS. If this is the case, then perhaps the wrong mushroom was used. That's the most likely reason. The 1992 stock might be different, but on C and D stocks there is only one "mushroom" (CSDE override button) in the cab. This allows doors to open both sides and it is then up to the driver to use the door open buttons on the correct side. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2006 14:16:13 GMT
There is one mushroom on the 73 stack as well , if in fact this incident on the central turns out to be human error and not equipment failure then that is most unfortunate for the driver concerned
as im sure the t/op's on this forum will agree , it is impossible to open the doors on the wrong side if you follow the correct procedure
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2006 18:25:32 GMT
No mushroom on the 92 stock. I's a switch behind the driver.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2006 22:24:46 GMT
This should be impossible to do, even after pressing the CSDE Override...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2006 23:04:38 GMT
This should be impossible to do, even after pressing the CSDE Override... Well, it's not impossible - you hit the override and then press the open buttons on the wrong side! |
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Nov 3, 2006 23:26:40 GMT
Hmmm......argument between Central and District. If one of you defines 'impossible' in this context we may have an answer. Coz if ATO says it's 'impossible' and he drives the Central then it couldn't have happened. But it did!
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Nov 4, 2006 2:39:54 GMT
The correct procedure* is to hit the over ride device, open the cab door on the same side as the platform and put one foot on it. Once you have a foot firmly planted on the platform, you open the doors from that side of the cab - it is therefore theoretically impossible to open up on the wrong side unless you have very long arms.
*= Correct in so far as this is regarded as the fail safe way of doing it within the driving grade, though it's not actually a "rule book" job.
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Nov 4, 2006 7:42:33 GMT
*= Correct in so far as this is regarded as the fail safe way of doing it within the driving grade, though it's not actually a "rule book" job. So where does this leave the t/op in this situation? Is he disciplined for breaking the rules or merely slapped on the wrist for not following accepted procedure? Seems a rather grey area the way you've described it. |
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Post by Colin on Nov 4, 2006 13:46:26 GMT
AFAIK, the 'ruling' is that the train operator must ensure the doors are opened on the correct side. It is a grey area in so far as the fact that there is no laid down procedure, so the "must ensure" bit is open to interpretation   All I can say is (certainly on the District), putting a foot on the platform prior to opening the doors [when using the CSDE over ride] is considered the best practice. Should an incident reach investigation stage, the train operator would be asked how it came to be that the wrong side had been opened. If the train operator failed to "ensure" that it was only possible to open the correct side....... |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2006 18:03:27 GMT
The correct procedure is to hit the over ride device, open the cab door on the same side as the platform and put one foot on it. So if the driver gets it wrong, he falls out before anyone else does!  ;D |
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Post by JR 15secs on Nov 4, 2006 18:52:50 GMT
Was the equipment on the platform turned off? I have seen switches marked up CSDE normally padlocked. There was a T/Op on the Bakerloo who used bottle tops to cover the buttons for the side which was not correct, dont think there were any empty bottles in the cab though.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2006 9:41:51 GMT
really odd, because I was travelling home with a colleague who overran at a station, he was busy chatting to me, hit the CSDE and then pressed the open buttons on the console on the wrong side...I then open up cab on platform side, then open up passenger doors. I noticed that the other doors were still closed...
Summat not right there...
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Post by frankoids on Nov 5, 2006 12:20:10 GMT
The correct procedure * is to hit the over ride device, open the cab door on the same side as the platform and put one foot on it. Once you have a foot firmly planted on the platform, you open the doors from that side of the cab - it is therefore theoretically impossible to open up on the wrong side unless you have very long arms. I was taught a slight variation on the above. Open the cab door correct side Press CSDE button With one foot on platform open doors from that side of the cab. I think the only advantage being that you are standing up and have the visual clue of the open cab door before you actually go near the CSDE button. Both ways should ensure correct side door opening. The bottom line is don't rush and don't be lazy. |
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Post by trainopd78 on Nov 5, 2006 13:53:18 GMT
Are there any MCB's on the 92TS, that if tripped would allow the door buttons to bypass the CSDE?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2006 14:11:07 GMT
I think a lot of drivers create unnecessary pressure for themselves and seem to want to rush everything (sometimes other factors cause this: line controllers, dmts, wanting to make up time, late grub/finish etc etc) but if for some reason you need to over-ride the csde you should not rush as surely its better to have a short delay in opening the doors than to open them on the worng side?
cannon st westbound is a very tight platform for the csde as the best view of the opo equipment is obtained if you run slightly past the csde loop (in my opinion) but then of course the problem is that you could open the doors on the wrong side if you rush. luckily most of the circle drivers i know aren't known for rushing and i've never heard of a wrong side door opening at cannon st wb. the health and safety reps are aware of this issue so i'm surprised the location of the csde at this location hasnt been sorted yet.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Nov 6, 2006 1:52:03 GMT
In 21/2 years of driving on the District, I've never known there to be a problem with the CSDE at Cannon Street.........unless it's specifically a C stock issue.
I would say the 'tightest' stations on the District are Temple & Sloane Square on the westbound, and Parsons Green on the eastbound.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2006 5:16:46 GMT
maybe its a 'c' stock issue then  can't say i've noticed anything wrong with temple myself either, so that could be a 'd' stock only one! i suppose as well that each of us has their own tecnique and we all prefer slightly different driving/braking styles and best opo view will vary from driver to driver. monument e/b is also quite dodgy on occasion i find. sometimes you'll open the doors on the front console (when totally stationary - obviously) and if you need to reopen them once you've closed them 1st time, bag stuck etc, you will find that in the time you've been in the platform the csde loop is no longer picking up your train! thats the main problem at cannon st too. maybe the 'd' stock has a better reception or something? be interesting to know what others think. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2006 20:15:57 GMT
I was taught a slight variation on the above. Open the cab door correct side Press CSDE button With one foot on platform open doors from that side of the cab. I think the only advantage being that you are standing up and have the visual clue of the open cab door before you actually go near the CSDE button. Both ways should ensure correct side door opening. The bottom line is don't rush and don't be lazy. that is also the way i was taught Spot on frankoids |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2006 12:24:56 GMT
I was taught Colin's way of doing the CSDE ...perhaps it's a District thing given the button is on the far off side of the cab, however I suspect the difficulty in getting past the drivers seat to put a foot on the platform is why most drivers do not do this along with the time it takes. It is none the less a moment of high risk ! There is a full procedure set out for action following a wrongside door opening. My view is provided an operator then follows the correct procedure, it should be treated the same way as any other saftey related incident, (like a SPAD) it would go on record the operator would be spoken too and if necessary issued a corrective action plan, but no substantive disciplinary action against the operator unless there were several such saftey related incidents within the defined time period. For the record, 1967 stock and the Victoria Line are not equipped with CSDE and wrongside door openings are not that uncommon, (and Warren Street northbound is where they usually happen ...first platform on the nearside) infact when I was there, one operator managed to open the doors whilst the train was on the move ! I agree with Prakash, however, the CSDE loop is not always ideally placed ...it rather depends at certain stations how you wish to look at the mirror monitors. ie. through the front window or through the side door glass and then exactly how you stop. In some cases if you stop so you don't have to crane your neck about, you are either not in the loop or only just in it ! For me it's Mansion House w/b, I am only just on the very edge of the loop and a fraction short and I'm not in at all ! In some cases the loop goes right into the tunnel ...some very odd placements at some locations ! (I'm usually not in the loop at all when changed ends at Richmond and Wimbledon ..which means you can not re-open the doors having shut them on someone until you go over and hit the CSDE button ... I have those two as the worst placements. If you are in the loop at the west end of the train then you aught to be in it at the east end !! ) |
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;D
