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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2006 15:07:06 GMT
on the central line it says that there is a signal failure at Liverpool Street. But doesn't the ATO mean that no signals are needed? Or are there back up signals if there is a failure?
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Post by Tubeboy on Aug 22, 2006 15:14:08 GMT
"ATO, can you report to the Control centre please" ;D
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2006 15:17:08 GMT
On way guv'nor. Put simply, if there is a signal failure it will fail safe, [return to danger]. There are no back up signals. [unless some have been installed and I have been unaware for the past 5 years] With Automatic mode, you've got a target speed, red signal= zero as target speed.
And, I am SO glad I am missing all the fun...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2006 15:33:21 GMT
I suppose 'Signal failure' on LU's website is some sort of blanket failure for anything that's not caused by people on track, powerfailure, track failure or communication equipment.
ATO needs signaling as I can imagine, it's just not restricted to lights in various colours that go on and off. ;D Target speed has to be 'signaled' to the train, LU would probably call that a signal failure to it's customers. Not to the engineers but they are not what that website is for.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2006 16:33:45 GMT
I suppose 'Signal failure' on LU's website is some sort of blanket failure for anything that's not caused by people on track, powerfailure, track failure or communication equipment. ATO needs signaling as I can imagine, it's just not restricted to lights in various colours that go on and off. ;D Target speed has to be 'signaled' to the train, LU would probably call that a signal failure to it's customers. Not to the engineers but they are not what that website is for. Well you pretty much answered your own question there. Signalling comes in many forms, whether it be light signals with trainstops, cab signalling, track circuit based ATO/ATP, or radio based ATO/ATP. It's all signalling. As far as I'm aware, most signal failures are caused by track circuit or relay failures.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2006 16:35:35 GMT
what happens in the whole of the ATO system fails then? Is the service totally screwed.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2006 17:12:48 GMT
Not really, because you still have the Coded Manual mode. [Drive train manually with the target Speed and ATP] It's usually the train borne ATO equipment that goes wrong....
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2006 17:42:41 GMT
but surely you would not know where trains are so you would go until you see the next train?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2006 17:47:36 GMT
what happens in the whole of the ATO system fails then? Is the service totally screwed. As long as you still can get a target speed, you are fine.
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Post by Chris M on Aug 22, 2006 19:50:23 GMT
The line is now suspended between Marble Arch and Bethnal Green due to emergency engineering work at Liverpool Street (although the realtime map only shows it shut Marble Arch-Chancery Lane, and Bank-Liverpool Street). Presumably this is related to the earlier singal problems?
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Post by ribaric on Aug 23, 2006 22:43:36 GMT
When I worked on the Central, pre - Wood lane, it was rare to get any kind of signalling failure other than track/points problems. It was understood that this stuff was out in all weathers and lumping great trains ran all over it every couple of minutes. There were 13 signal boxes needing a roster of 65 Signal Operators.
When we opened Wood Lane, these failures remained at the same level as before - probably for the same reasons as before. These were augmented (maybe there's a better word) by the need to transmit signalling information back to the CC, code/decode it, interpret it into a readable format and comply with additional safety precautions (eg: sequence alarms). In effect, the complexity double and consequently, the failure rate doubled along with the fix times. We needed 36 highly paid people to operate Wood Lane, that may have changed since my time.
On reflection, I'm not sure we made the right decisions although it would have been regarded as luddite had we not aligned ourselves with what other railways were doing around the world at the time. I think we should have kept it simple and invested more time and effort into the skills of our people rather than trusting technology to make it all come together. I remember this being considered but there was a view that the militancy and power weilded by the TUs frightened people away from this option. The fear was - if you trained people into a highly skilled unit then they could hold you to ransome for any whimsical demand. One way or another, misguided management and trigger-happy TUs more or less decided upon the way Wood Lane was put together.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2006 3:11:43 GMT
the signal failure at liverpool street was actually a track circuit failure but looking at what was wrong i can see why it took some time to rectify
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