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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2006 18:56:29 GMT
Usual humdrum day at the helm of a train. was on my final leg of duty today, just left Newbury Park w/b, dives into the tunnel, and suddenly lose the pilot light. DTS shows nothing [as usual] and I've lost MCL. I grind to a halt, just shy of Gants Hill. To test my theories, I knock the TBC out of stow, and the DTS goes mad. Re-stow it. I've got a clear section in front of me. I ask passengers to stand away from the doors via the PA. I'm miffed as to why I've come to a stand. I've still got juice, as the compressors are whirring away. I shut 'er down, wait around 15 seconds, then fire her up again. I put the MCS into CM, and move the TBC to a motoring position... and she moves off... Hooray! I get her into Gants Hill and get on the blower. Yeah, leading car number, blah blah blah, sort this heap out etc. I tries again for ATO operation. I can hear the ATO circuits clicking away behind me, obviously trying to move the train. No luck, so I have to drive in CM, at least until Leytonstone. I gets there, eventually an advise the boss man that I've got a possible ATO related failure, with no known cause. Right-oh then lad, he says take her out of service, run in CM and we'll book you up to Ruislip for a C/o. I advise him I'm C/o'ing at White City too, cos me duty has finished. Ok then, he promises to get back to me... Sure enough, I'm just rolling through Bond Street, and he says he's got a fitter to meet me and t/o the train. Right oh then boss.
I'm still miffed as to what caused this problem. Never had something like that happen, ever. It's very odd for the DTS not to warn me of a defect of that nature - normally the thing goes mad.
EDIT: I thought about putting this under the Trains Technical board, but decided it best to stick it here. Mods etc can move it if they think its relevant
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Jan 18, 2006 21:11:53 GMT
Usual problem with computers: what happens if there's a fault in the fault detection circuits?  ?? Fail safe? Who said so ?! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2006 23:08:11 GMT
Usual problem with computers: what happens if there's a fault in the fault detection circuits? ?? Fail safe? Who said so ?! Given that ATO trains tend to grind to a halt if a computer fails, as opposed to driving at 80mph in the wrong direction, then they are extremely fail safe! An immobile train may be annoying, but tends to be quite safe. |
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Jan 18, 2006 23:31:41 GMT
I think I put that wrongly. Of course all railway systems from signalling to train control are fail-safe as they should be.
But in this case, as so often with computers, if something happens that the computer does not recognise, it just gives up and goes home (in this case the ATO circuits). No danger, no problem, train stops in default mode - but computer hasn't a clue as to what is going on (probably because the programmer never foresaw that particular combination of circumstances)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2006 23:51:05 GMT
I think I put that wrongly. Of course all railway systems from signalling to train control are fail-safe as they should be. But in this case, as so often with computers, if something happens that the computer does not recognise, it just gives up and goes home (in this case the ATO circuits). No danger, no problem, train stops in default mode - but computer hasn't a clue as to what is going on (probably because the programmer never foresaw that particular combination of circumstances) This is why its important for a system to be de-bugged as much as reasonably possible before being installed. Once a system is running, it is useful to have some sort of diagnostic system, which can report the computers processes around the time of failure to an engineer back at the depot. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2006 3:36:52 GMT
Once a system is running, it is useful to have some sort of diagnostic system, which can report the computers processes around the time of failure to an engineer back at the depot. The 92s do have this, a laptop gets plugged in and data is downloaded, they know everything even down to what button or mcb was operated. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2006 6:57:34 GMT
Hmmm......sounds like the 1992TS needs some updated software! I'm handy with Delphi, does that count? ;D
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Post by clavman on Jan 19, 2006 14:24:24 GMT
I've just looked at my defect book. Nothing I've found relates to this, but then again that's not uncommon. Innitially I thought it was a loss of feed to the rear cab control. The indications are the same, but there is an equipment fault and PEA DTS message. My guess it's one of the many weird and wonderful faults those train throw up at us. Possibly a faulty relay or hardware fault that you partially cleared by shutting down and opening up again. The clicking relays you heard was perhaps the ATP controller re booting itself. I've had similar many times. A stock move I did last week had the same - Loss of round train for no apparent reason - MCS back to select and back to CM cleared the fault. What are the leading/rear car numbers?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2006 17:45:53 GMT
Isnt Metronet developing some kind of remote diagnostic system, so that the engineers can see faults even when the unit isnt anywhere near the depot? Or did I just dream it?
By the way, the leading car was 91237, that on the back was 91135. Detail retreived from my rather illegible scribblings in the notebook! When i get a mo, I'll have a chat with the TM's at Ruislip and try and find out, just what happened to cause that particular set of events.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2006 20:03:24 GMT
Isnt Metronet developing some kind of remote diagnostic system, so that the engineers can see faults even when the unit isnt anywhere near the depot? Or did I just dream it? You arn't dreaming. There is a press release here www.metronetrail.com/default.asp?sID=1133783460218 |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2006 20:28:51 GMT
Nice One!!! Thanks for that stephenk, that article's sure interesting. |
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Post by greatplum on Jan 21, 2006 15:26:14 GMT
I have never seen so many acronyms in my life!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2006 20:37:49 GMT
I have never seen so many acronyms in my life! yes, but the funny thing is, most of us appear to know what each other is saying.... |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jan 22, 2006 13:37:11 GMT
Acronyms: - w/b = West bound
- DTS = Data Transmissions System = Unit that is supposed to tell you what is wrong when there is a fault (I think).
- MCL = ? (I'm guessing "Master Control Light" or something like that)
- TBC = Traction Brake Controller = the handle = thing that controls the train's acceleration and breaking (when in manual driving mode)
- PA = Public Address system
- MCS = Master Control Switch (I think this is what sets the mode of the train between "off", "ATO" and "manual" operation).
- CM = Coded Manual (operation) = the train is being driven by a human rather than in ATO mode
- ATO = Automatic Train Operation (a computer drives teh train rather than a human). Note "ATO operation" is tautology
- C/o = Change over = when a driver changes trains or a train changes drivers.
- t/o = this is possibly the most overused acronym on the Underground. I think it means "take over" in this case, but it could also mean "train operator" or "tehcnical officer"
note: most of this is just guesses, so some or all of the above may be wrong! |
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Post by CSLR on Jan 22, 2006 13:52:42 GMT
The list of acronyms made me think. What about all the 'railway language', some of which will eventually fade away as things get more automated?
Examples: 'stick', 'knock-down', 'drop-off' (why can I only think of signalling ones?)
Has anyone recorded these and their meanings? If so, does anyone know where?
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Post by Chris M on Jan 22, 2006 14:41:17 GMT
TubePrune has a good glossary for many (but unforunately not all) LU terms, acronyms and slang. www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/dictionary.htmI'm sure there are many other ones for the jargon used by other railways around the world, but I don't know the location of them. I'm not certain if there is a big central resource anywhere. Would be good if there was though. Chris |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2006 17:35:41 GMT
Acronyms: - w/b = West bound
- DTS = Data Transmissions System = Unit that is supposed to tell you what is wrong when there is a fault (I think).
- MCL = ? (I'm guessing "Master Control Light" or something like that)
- TBC = Traction Brake Controller = the handle = thing that controls the train's acceleration and breaking (when in manual driving mode)
- PA = Public Address system
- MCS = Master Control Switch (I think this is what sets the mode of the train between "off", "ATO" and "manual" operation).
- CM = Coded Manual (operation) = the train is being driven by a human rather than in ATO mode
- ATO = Automatic Train Operation (a computer drives teh train rather than a human). Note "ATO operation" is tautology
- C/o = Change over = when a driver changes trains or a train changes drivers.
- t/o = this is possibly the most overused acronym on the Underground. I think it means "take over" in this case, but it could also mean "train operator" or "tehcnical officer"
note: most of this is just guesses, so some or all of the above may be wrong! 99% correct mate, and well done for effort, just to add or correct, MCL=Main Car Lighting TS=Target Speed TODHG=Train Operators Defect Handling Guidelines. a sometimes helpful folder situated in the cabs of trains, which lists defects and how to rectify them. |
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Post by rob66 on Jan 23, 2006 22:16:53 GMT
Stopped train halfway down Roding Valley platform, because a cable was hanging down from the station building onto the track. Arranged to have traction current switched off both roads - so I could free cable with a paddle. (cable was dead) L/C confirmed traction current off. As I was about to get onto track, I had noticed my aux' light was on and main car lights. L/C still confirmed traction current still off. After a five/six minutes I lost my power on my train.
When stabling on the shed roads I done a complete shutdown. Everything remained on as before proving something was wrong with the train.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2006 22:32:28 GMT
Stopped train halfway down Roding Valley platform, because a cable was hanging down from the station building onto the track. Arranged to have traction current switched off both roads - so I could free cable with a paddle. (cable was dead) L/C confirmed traction current off. As I was about to get onto track, I had noticed my aux' light was on and main car lights. L/C still confirmed traction current still off. After a five/six minutes I lost my power on my train. When stabling on the shed roads I done a complete shutdown. Everything remained on as before proving something was wrong with the train. Probably the most exciting thing to happen at Roding Valley in a while! |
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Post by q8 on Jan 23, 2006 22:44:17 GMT
Would that be the power pack holding a charge I wonder? Is it supposed to do that? I recall a recent incident where someone got a belt when the current was off. Power pack discharging to earth perhaps? Needs looking into.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jan 23, 2006 22:56:08 GMT
One of my colleagues who has spent time in rolling stock informs me that the Aux circuits (including car lights) on 92TS are on a timer to loadshed after Traction Current has been discharged, thus preventing flicker when passing over rail gaps etc.
While this timer is meant to be set at 2 mins, it is not unknown for the setting to drift.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jan 23, 2006 22:58:19 GMT
Once a system is running, it is useful to have some sort of diagnostic system, which can report the computers processes around the time of failure to an engineer back at the depot. The 92s do have this, a laptop gets plugged in and data is downloaded, they know everything even down to what button or mcb was operated. Depends on what monitoring is used. An ordinary DTS download can't tell you that much. Over/under 5kph and 16kph, PAC details, etc. Fit laptops as part of a five train trial and we can see almost everything, even how long the start buttons are pressed for. |
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