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Post by melikepie on Oct 29, 2024 13:40:14 GMT
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Post by spsmiler on Oct 29, 2024 18:43:40 GMT
If anything this was a human wetware issue - the automated part of the story worked flawlessly.
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Post by brigham on Oct 29, 2024 20:39:54 GMT
If you can get a tube train from Epping to Ealing Broadway, I'm sure you could get one to Penzance!
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Post by jimbo on Oct 30, 2024 3:16:00 GMT
Happened on the Vic Line in its early years. Driver went down platform to close sticking door, and as it closed the train went off with no-one in the cab! No worries, except needed someone to open all the doors at the next stop.
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Post by revupminster on Oct 30, 2024 7:17:19 GMT
As the system worked, this will be the future. Didn't they want to do something similar between Seven Sisters and Northumberland Park depot?
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gefw
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Post by gefw on Oct 30, 2024 8:56:29 GMT
As ever, lessons are learnt from incidents and incorporated in design requirements/standards and for instance and I thought the ATO start buttons press is now only "accepted/ latched" if all other conditions fulfilled (such as doors proven & signalling movement authority etc). It seems this was not in the requirements for Crossrail/Eliz line ? Either way worth remembering that signalling safety was still in place by the ATP functions. Note this auto reversing is a very specific manoeuvre implemented at specific locations where rapid turnarounds required without double staffing. Perhaps LUL may suggest it for newer systems where reversing in siding is common (to allow the Train Op to walk through the train whilst driving into the siding (having pressed the start button in the leading cab))!
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Post by jimbo on Oct 30, 2024 9:31:51 GMT
Paddington is a special case on the new line, with almost half the service reversing there. Since safely walking through a moving train requires open gangways between cars, it is difficult to think of such a location on the SSR, or on the Piccadilly that could justify such an arrangement.
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Post by brigham on Oct 30, 2024 10:13:42 GMT
The Train Op could set the train off, then cross to the other platform and wait for it!
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Post by Dstock7080 on Oct 30, 2024 11:04:53 GMT
The Train Op could set the train off, then cross to the other platform and wait for it! This has been proposed for CBTC Lines and a trial at Barking which was defeated by the unions. It wouldn’t necessarily be the same train that would be picked up on the other platform. (the initial train could return before the driver has crossed platforms)
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Oct 30, 2024 11:35:25 GMT
Happened on the Vic Line in its early years. Driver went down platform to close sticking door, and as it closed the train went off with no-one in the cab! No worries, except needed someone to open all the doors at the next stop. Slightly different scenario,in the 70s train was held outside Finsbury Pk SB fitter decided to get down and change defective tail light.Train moved leaving him stranded,he had to take refuge in a bolt hole,this was in pre train radio days,was there about 30 minutes before he managed to flag a train down.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Oct 30, 2024 16:01:29 GMT
If you can get a tube train from Epping to Ealing Broadway, I'm sure you could get one to Penzance! Not without new track! The only connection between the Central line and National Rail is the transfer siding at West Ruislip. Once you've reversed there, the GWML is easily accessible via the Greenford branch but powering the train might be an issue. I wonder how far you'd get if you filled the passenger saloon with fully charged batteries connected to the motors?
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Post by jimbo on Oct 30, 2024 18:56:21 GMT
The Train Op could set the train off, then cross to the other platform and wait for it! This has been proposed for CBTC Lines and a trial at Barking which was defeated by the unions. It wouldn’t necessarily be the same train that would be picked up on the other platform. (the initial train could return before the driver has crossed platforms) I think I heard the Barking proposal in connection with the proposed Bombardier resignalling, so a long while back. Running an unstaffed train into a passenger platform for the driver to pick up would surely require platform edge doors these days. Standard on the Elizabeth Line, but they are still staffing the reversal at Westbourne Park. So, even on a new railway, they have not gone that far. Having a different driver for the departure from the arrival is like stepping back of crews, with all the complications that introduces during service disruption.
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Post by coyote on Oct 30, 2024 19:01:58 GMT
Happened on the Vic Line in its early years. Driver went down platform to close sticking door, and as it closed the train went off with no-one in the cab! No worries, except needed someone to open all the doors at the next stop. Slightly different scenario,in the 70s train was held outside Finsbury Pk SB fitter decided to get down and change defective tail light.Train moved leaving him stranded,he had to take refuge in a bolt hole,this was in pre train radio days,was there about 30 minutes before he managed to flag a train down. I was told that this happened on the approach to Brixton SB, when the train was held outside the car examiner thought the train was in the platform and went out through the cab door to fix the tail light. He waited on the sound deadening board until he was spotted.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Oct 30, 2024 22:05:24 GMT
Maybe you’re right but the story I heard was outside Finsbury Pk SB.
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gefw
Gone - but still interested
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Post by gefw on Oct 31, 2024 8:32:48 GMT
The Train Op could set the train off, then cross to the other platform and wait for it! This has been proposed for CBTC Lines and a trial at Barking which was defeated by the unions. It wouldn’t necessarily be the same train that would be picked up on the other platform. (the initial train could return before the driver has crossed platforms) I can understand the resistance to the train move being "unstaffed" (ie no one on train to resolve any problems). But with walk though trains and in car CCTV there is good certainly scope for staffed reversals. Note the main problem/delay with reversing trains at somewhere other than in a platform is the current detraining rules/arrangements (so you need a spare platform) else I would suggest Ruislip on the Met
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Oct 31, 2024 11:36:21 GMT
Unstaffed reversing is not currently permitted by the regulator. AIUI one of the reasons it is allowed on the 345s is that the on-board staff member can initiate an emergency stop while walking through the train if needs be. LU stock would presumably require such a facility if it were to be introduced (I don't know whether it has such or, if it doesn't, how much would be required to introduce it).
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class411
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Post by class411 on Oct 31, 2024 12:11:40 GMT
Unstaffed reversing is not currently permitted by the regulator. AIUI one of the reasons it is allowed on the 345s is that the on-board staff member can initiate an emergency stop while walking through the train if needs be. LU stock would presumably require such a facility if it were to be introduced (I don't know whether it has such or, if it doesn't, how much would be required to introduce it). All stock has the ability for anyone in a carriage to 'alert the driver' about a problem, so there is a way to get a signal to the cab. Thus is should be fairly simple to arrange this signal to initiate an emergency stop when switched to 'auto-whatever' mode.
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Post by jimbo on Nov 1, 2024 2:49:06 GMT
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class411
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Post by class411 on Nov 1, 2024 12:39:37 GMT
Has TFL ever done a large scale investigation into the cost and practicality of fully ATO? Of have smaller studies shown it's so far from feasible in the foreseeable future that it's not worth spending the money on a full study? It seems the talk of fully ATO is little more than political grandstanding. (I hope this isn't straying to far into political / pseudo political territory.)
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Post by starlight73 on Nov 1, 2024 15:00:21 GMT
aslefshrugged has previously mentioned a study done for the NTFL project in a previous thread. See this past thread: districtdavesforum.co.uk/post/522919/thread They said ‘driverless trains’ with DLR-style train captains would be possible but unaffordable. Fully Unattended Train Operation was found to be impossible on the existing LU network. ATO (trains driven by the onboard computer with a driver at front) has been rolled out on several lines as you’re probably already aware. There is no money to fund it on the Piccadilly, Bakerloo, Waterloo & City, or western ends of the District line (apologies if this is going off topic)
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Post by jimbo on Nov 2, 2024 8:03:08 GMT
I have seen reports on the economics of various staffing models for the new generation of tube trains. They seem to conclude with different recommendations depending upon assumptions made and resultant calculations. I wonder if they start out with the question “What outcome do you want to see?” The case one way or the other is probably close, but full automation would certainly require a much higher capital investment which is not currently available. There is also a big backlog of maintenance work which cannot be put off indefinitely without consequence. The case for eventual full automation, but with customer service assistant present on all trains, was reviewed and found financially worthwhile in the 2016 DTUP Business Case. A possible unattended train operation was less financially attractive, although a further option between the two was also considered, known as 'planned attended'. This would require staff rostered for all planned services but may allow operation, subject to conditions, with service disruption or staff missing. However, after further work, the 2017 DTUP Business Case now showed negative benefit (or dis-benefit) from attended GoA4 (full automation), but similar levels of benefit from either planned attended or unattended GoA4. The impact on station dwell times awaiting platform edge doors at each station will add 0.5 seconds, and gap fillers at curved platforms add a further 1 or 2 seconds. This was left to a subsequent investment programme, allowing time for more study since a decision was not needed for a decade. When funds become available for Piccadilly Line resignalling, perhaps a case will then be made for the level of automation to be provided.
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Post by matthewbsstock on Nov 2, 2024 11:28:40 GMT
how did they get a driver to it after it went off by itself
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Post by pgb on Nov 2, 2024 12:35:17 GMT
how did they get a driver to it after it went off by itself Only went to Westbourne Park sidings - so can block the signalling system from allowing it back out. Then just send somebody up on the next train to go and retrieve it
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Post by matthewbsstock on Nov 2, 2024 15:00:49 GMT
how did they get a driver to it after it went off by itself Only went to Westbourne Park sidings - so can block the signalling system from allowing it back out. Then just send somebody up on the next train to go and retrieve it i handt realised that was a feature of the signaling system thanks for the reponse
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