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Post by q8 on Oct 13, 2005 10:04:48 GMT
;D TOK is your curiostiy catching as I seem to be having a brainstorm today? Why don't LUL abandon mechanicle trainstops and put in the magnetic type as used on other metro systems in the world. Or even the 'Indusi' system that has been used in Germany since the 1930's (Yeah, yeah, I know they'll bleat 'it costs money' )
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Post by tom2506 on Oct 13, 2005 10:07:04 GMT
LU always seem to want to be different!
(eg. them and their 3rd and 4th current rails!)
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Oct 13, 2005 10:52:20 GMT
Cos apart from the Northern line problems, it's good system that works - why change something that works?!!
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Post by ikar on Oct 13, 2005 10:58:35 GMT
Indusi is a great train protection system. It is based on the acknowledging system. If the train passes a yellow signal the driver must press the button and slow down, but if he didn't press the button the train will stop. If he didn't slow on time the train will be stoped... The system prevents trains from SPAD-ing really good. (Yeah, yeah, I know they'll bleat 'it costs money' ) Yes, it would cost money but isn't the passenger/staff/property safety more important than many. (Safety first)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2005 11:24:00 GMT
Indusi sounds suspiciously like AWS.
Q8: Magnetic trainstops would certainly be an interesting idea - it could be something like AWS is now.
Basically you put a largish electromagnet on the track next to the signal, in between a pair of rare earth magnets, and mount another electromagnet on the train. When the signal is green, the electromagnet is charged up to face in the same direction as the rare earth magnets (i.e. all three magnetic north poles point in the direction of travel). When the signal is red, the electromagnet could be charged up in reverse (i.e. N-S-N). The trainside electromagnet could simply be connected to some wizard circuitry that reads the electric pulses from the electromagnet, and if they match the N-S-N pole orientation, it opens the round-train circuit.
Using rare earth magnets would probably be expensive, given the huge number of trainstops currently in use, but it would have the advantage of being failsafe - if the power fails to the signalling system, you end up with a pair of magnets pointing north with a gap in between; the onboard train circuitry could read that as an N-S-N condition and stop the train.
So where's BAET to say how impossible this is... ;D
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Post by igelkotten on Oct 13, 2005 11:59:29 GMT
Indusi sounds suspiciously like AWS. Not really. You could say that the TPWS system recently introduced in Britain is a relative of Indusi, though. Basically, the Indusi system not only requires the driver to acknowledge a restrictive signal or speed, but also enforces it. If a brake application is not started, and speed not reduced by the driver within the parameters set, then the Indusi will trigger a "Zwangsbremsung" -a penalty brake application, or in certain circumstances, even an emergency brake application. A good, detailed, introduction in how Indusi (in english, too!) works can be found here: www.sh1.org/eisenbahn/rindusi.htm
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Post by ikar on Oct 13, 2005 12:46:33 GMT
Indusi sounds suspiciously like AWS. You can try it on the loksim simulator found on www.loksim3d.de
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Post by q8 on Oct 13, 2005 15:21:49 GMT
No TOK with Indusi the trackside magnet is permanent and needs no current or batteries. The power is on the trains only. See the website Igelkotten has indicated and you get the idea.
EDIT: See Mr Igelkotten's and my further posts on the magnets.
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Post by igelkotten on Oct 13, 2005 23:48:04 GMT
No TOK with Indusi the trackside magnet is permanent and needs no current or batteries. The power is on the trains only. See the website Igelkotten has indicated and you get the idea. To delve further into details, the trackside magnet is actually not a permanent magnet, but is instead energized by induction from the train-borne magnet. Thus the name Induktive Zugsicherung, Inductive Train safe-working. The net effect is, however, as Q8 describes -the magnets do not need any external power supply to work. In some variants, however, the switches that determine whether the trackside magnet is on or off are powered. Of course, they are set up in such a way that a power failure causes the magnet to activate, and thus give a speed restriction.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2005 23:48:48 GMT
Indusi is a great train protection system. It is based on the acknowledging system. If the train passes a yellow signal the driver must press the button and slow down, but if he didn't press the button the train will stop. If he didn't slow on time the train will be stoped... The system prevents trains from SPAD-ing really good. But with the tripcock system the driver can decide how to respond to the yellow, which should be more efficient, i.e. not over-react if the red is miles away. And signal overlaps ensure that it's still safe.
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Post by igelkotten on Oct 14, 2005 0:00:05 GMT
But with the tripcock system the driver can decide how to respond to the yellow, which should be more efficient, i.e. not over-react if the red is miles away. And signal overlaps ensure that it's still safe. The Indusi systems gives you a braking curve that ends at the signal that is at danger -which is where you should stop, irregardless of yellows or whatever. Thus, since you can be sure of a train stopping where it should stop, you can have much smaller overlaps -"durchrutschstrecken". So, higher line capacity. And while the driver has to follow certain parameters in their operation, they are free to act within those. So, if you are driving agressively, you can brake in such a manner that you reach your target speed exactly as it comes into effect. And if the signal should clear while you are approaching it, you can always use the Indusi Frei -button to bypass the Indusi sequence and raise your speed again. Take a look at the link to a description of the Indusi system I posted upthread. It goes into a lot of detail and really does a good job of explaining how it works.
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Post by q8 on Oct 14, 2005 5:08:32 GMT
Thank you Igelkotten for the explanation of the trackside magnets involved with Indusi. I had the vision that it was some sort of permanent magnet that somehow was set to a value of cycles. I now see that was wrong. I believe also (but may be wrong) that overlaps are inclusive in the system.
I suppose that it was only political predjudice in the UK ( it being German) that prevented it's adoption here. IMHO it is far superior system to AWS.
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Oct 14, 2005 9:54:24 GMT
Right Igelkotten, I have now had time to study InDusi properly and have one question.
I can see the 1000Hz magnet is activated locally by the distant at caution, and the 2000Hz magnet is activated locally by the home at danger: what activates the 500Hz magnet and where from?
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Post by q8 on Oct 14, 2005 11:20:18 GMT
Phil the 500hz magnet is worked the same way as the other two. By an inductor mounted on the train.
You have the wrong vision though. The SIGNAL does NOT activate the magnet the train itself does. The trackside magnet has a passive resonance circuit. The signal only makes or breaks that circuit. If it is open circuit (clear signal) the loco mounted inductor had no effect.
It's a kind of AWS in reverse. Instead of two track mounted inductors there are is a loco mounted triple frequency one.
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Oct 14, 2005 11:31:42 GMT
Phil the 500hz magnet is worked the same way as the other two. By an inductor mounted on the train. You have the wrong vision though. The SIGNAL does NOT activate the magnet the train itself does. The trackside magnet has a passive resonance circuit. The signal only makes or breaks that circuit. If it is open circuit (clear signal) the loco mounted inductor had no effect. It's a kind of AWS in reverse. Instead of two track mounted inductors there are 3 loco mounted ones. One for each desired frequency. If I can find a picture of them I'll put it on here No I understand all that. But something has to open/close the switch to short-circuit the resonance circuit: the 500 Hz magnet is remote from a signal so what switches the short-circuiter?
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Post by q8 on Oct 14, 2005 11:43:40 GMT
Oh I see what you mean. It would appear to be remotely closed by the home signal circuit. I imagine through the red light contacts in the circuitry
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