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Post by imran on Aug 20, 2024 7:31:35 GMT
The entire Victoria Line has been suspended this morning due to a casualty on the track. That’s really unusual for a casualty on the tracks to suspend an entire line!
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brigham
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Post by brigham on Aug 20, 2024 7:40:21 GMT
Probably due to the automatic driving system being inflexible.
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Post by wonderwaller on Aug 20, 2024 8:44:20 GMT
Yes very unusual I wonder if they were understaffed in the control room making easier to stop everything rather than risk making mistakes trying to manage the incident and set up shuttle services
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Post by greatkingrat on Aug 20, 2024 8:46:22 GMT
Probably due to the automatic driving system being inflexible. Do you think that manually driven trains can somehow swerve round the person?
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Aug 20, 2024 10:10:37 GMT
Probably due to the automatic driving system being inflexible. Without knowing any details I'd suggest that it's more likely the combination of location and timing meant they couldn't get enough units out the depot to run a safe service.
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Post by notverydeep on Aug 20, 2024 13:46:47 GMT
It can be the opposite, At peak times, the line has more trains working than there are platforms. In addition to dealing with the actual incident, ensuring that the passengers on the remaining trains can reach a platform and alight will be the first step and this can be a time consuming process if trains have to be reversed to reach a platform. Then in order to set up a limited shuttle on the remaining sections of line, some of the excess trains have to be moved out of the way and to the Depot or sidings depending on which sections can still remain energised. Against this, the controllers have to weigh up when they expect a service to resume through the incident area and will try to avoid moves that might delay through running resuming.
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Post by starlight73 on Aug 20, 2024 14:12:27 GMT
I don't know where the incident was. If there's an incident between Victoria and Kings Cross, then there is no suitable turn-back siding available for running a partial service I think? As the Victoria turn-back has access from the north, and the King's Cross and Seven Sisters ones have access from the south.
But it could be other issues as well
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Post by wonderwaller on Aug 20, 2024 16:36:36 GMT
I don't know where the incident was. If there's an incident between Victoria and Kings Cross, then there is no suitable turn-back siding available for running a partial service I think? As the Victoria turn-back has access from the north, and the King's Cross and Seven Sisters ones have access from the south. But it could be other issues as well A suspension between kings x and vic would usually result in trains reversing at Highbury back to Walthamstow there’s also the ability to reverse at Warren Street but as others have stated that depends on which current sections are off any stalled trains getting trains to depot to make space to move and also there’s always a chance certain moves are unavailable due to infrastructure failures (points being out of commission etc)
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brigham
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Post by brigham on Aug 20, 2024 17:11:33 GMT
Probably due to the automatic driving system being inflexible. Do you think that manually driven trains can somehow swerve round the person? What a bizarre concept.
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Post by bjames on Aug 20, 2024 21:33:21 GMT
The incident was at King's Cross according to an announcement made at my local Overground station this morning, where we were being advised to stay on the train to Liverpool Street (which, as an aside, was extremely helpful because the driver was only able to share that information when the doors were about to open at Seven Sisters, giving those who hadn't checked in advance a helpful heads up).
This is likely to have made it quite difficult to run any sort of shuttle service - I did see that it was showing as Part Suspended between Seven Sisters and Victoria for a brief time before the decision was evidently taken to suspend the whole line, probably the right call. I took a leisurely diversion route via Liverpool Street and the circle line and by the time I'd gotten to Victoria, the line had just opened up to Severe Delays.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Aug 21, 2024 20:30:06 GMT
Whilst I'm not overly familiar with the Victoria line, I do have the advantage of being able to have a look at internal reporting systems. wonderwaller isn't far off with their suggestions regarding stalled trains and traction current sections. From what I've seen, it would have made sense to fully suspend the service and then restart once the initial incident and all that came with it was fully dealt with.
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Post by t697 on Aug 22, 2024 15:21:06 GMT
Agreed. Since the traction current would have to be off to deal with the casualty on track incident, bus couplers in substations would have to be opened to keep current on in other available parts of the line. That might well still not give a worthwhile section of line that could be used without all sorts of local crowding and operational management issues. The Vic line is normally operated as one single DC electrical section (48).
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Post by wonderwaller on Aug 22, 2024 16:12:14 GMT
Agreed. Since the traction current would have to be off to deal with the casualty on track incident, bus couplers in substations would have to be opened to keep current on in other available parts of the line. That might well still not give a worthwhile section of line that could be used without all sorts of local crowding and operational management issues. The Vic line is normally operated as one single DC electrical section (48). I think you’re slightly confusing two things there. What you’re explaining is the traction earth fault detection which is used to locate earth faults in the system. The vic line will have numerous traction current sections which will be switched off if required during an incident.
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Post by gefw on Aug 22, 2024 17:36:52 GMT
Agreed. Since the traction current would have to be off to deal with the casualty on track incident, bus couplers in substations would have to be opened to keep current on in other available parts of the line. That might well still not give a worthwhile section of line that could be used without all sorts of local crowding and operational management issues. The Vic line is normally operated as one single DC electrical section (48). I think you’re slightly confusing two things there. What you’re explaining is the traction earth fault detection which is used to locate earth faults in the system. The vic line will have numerous traction current sections which will be switched off if required during an incident. I read about a plan some time ago to couple multiple traction sections together during normal operation to help ensure Regenerated power is used more effectively - This may be the case on the Vic line - so isolating some sections is slightly more complicated (but may be handled automatically)
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Post by wonderwaller on Aug 22, 2024 21:49:54 GMT
I think you’re slightly confusing two things there. What you’re explaining is the traction earth fault detection which is used to locate earth faults in the system. The vic line will have numerous traction current sections which will be switched off if required during an incident. I read about a plan some time ago to couple multiple traction sections together during normal operation to help ensure Regenerated power is used more effectively - This may be the case on the Vic line - so isolating some sections is slightly more complicated (but may be handled automatically) No you’re right that has been done in certain areas to improve the benefits of regen etc but that has nil effect on the ability to switch off individual sections again there’s a slight confusion between the dc sectionsalisation and the individual traction current sections
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Post by seaeagle on Aug 23, 2024 10:21:40 GMT
Unless things have changed since I was on the Vic, when there was an incident at Kings Cross there was normally two shuttle services set up Walthamstow to Highbury reversing south to north off Highbury southbound platform and Brixton to Warren Street reversing north to south by drawing forward from Warren Street northbound and T/op changing ends and bringing the train back onto the southbound platform. Of course now most duty managers don't have the experience that the older ones had in running a service when the brown stuff hits the fan, it's most likely easier for those running the service from 'upstairs' to suspend and start again when the incident is over!
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Post by scheduler on Sept 19, 2024 23:37:52 GMT
Not so easy if you have more trains than platforms. By the time you have emptied the trains, it is possible incident is nearly over. Other issues, depending on the incident occurrence time, with only 1 depot it is possible there were insufficient trains for a double shuttle service. Also, running something on a very busy line could be more dangerous from overcrowding issues , especially if it is the peak.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Sept 20, 2024 10:19:20 GMT
With TfL's ongoing cyber attack issues it's not currently possible to access some internal reporting systems, but I seem to recall there were additional problems with this incident involving stalled trains (which made setting up shuttle services difficult) and passengers on those stalled trains becoming ill which then obviously became a priority.
I vaguely alluded to it in my previous post on this thread; there was much more to this event than just the initial incident itself. The Service Controllers had multiple issues to deal with and as a result it was easier to manage things by fully suspending the train service and then starting again once all had been resolved.
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