Eastern end of the District Line in the 1930s question

All the stations Upney-Upminster Bridge were built and staffed by the LMS. I have the picture in Peter Kay's authoritative history of LT&SR and Hornchurch was the only station to have this sign. He writes that District or Underground were seemingly not mentionable even when an electric service was being advertised.

There is a map of Hornchurch showing an electrified siding west of the station between the District and LT&SR tracks to allow District line trains to reverse (never used) which also acted as a refuge siding for LMS goods trains. All taken out in the LT&SR resignalling of 1961.

Electrification came much later with 1500v dc overhead system (already becoming obsolete) in the late 50s although Fenchurch -Stratford had already been electrified to meet with the Eastern Region railways.

1500v dc? Are you sure?

The LNER route from Fenchurch Street and Liverpool Street through Stratford was that voltage but I thought that the LMS route via Barking was 25kV AC from the start? (possibly also 6.25kV AC at the London end)

The line into Fenchurch Street was GER (leased from the London & Blackwall), so LNER, with the LT&SR (LMSR) having running powers, and was electrified from Bow Junction into F St as part of the electrification to Shenfield at 1500v dc, pre war project but not opened until 1949. The original project included shuttle trains from Stratford into Fenchuch St (for which bay platforms were provided for at Stratford - one was eventually used for the DLR), but in the event it was only used for diversions. Converted to ac in 1960 (originally 6.25kV), but the LTS electrification was a year or two later, only then did F St see a regular electric service. Although mainly 25kV, part was 6.25kV, both in the London area, but also through Southend (all this later converted to 25kV)

The Whitechapell and Bow was LT&S-MDR joint; beyond Campbell Road Junction (where it ended and joined the LT&S) it was wholly an LT&S/Midland/LMS line, with (and I am not sure of the details) MDR/LPTB trains working on, eventually to Upminster over aditional, electrified (to MDR standards) lines (but still LT&S/LMS - with LTS/LMS signalling): as I understand it, from a legal perspective, over this section they were providing an LT&S/Midland/LMS service, and some of the rolling stock was LMS owned, although forming part of the LPTB District fleet.

The tracks used by District trains were only transferred to LT after 1948, and not completley segregated from BR ones until (IIRC) sometime in the 1960s, as the need for interworking fell away.

The May and Baker factory was at Dagenham East, the ground frame on the LTSR down line was released by Barking LT signal cabin. West Ham had a number of factories but after the District Line was re signalled by the LTE no connections with factories in the West Ham area remained.

There are substations at Upney, Dagenham Heathway, Elm Park, Upminster Bridge, and I think Upminster depot. I didn't know where the were supplied from.

Fascinating, why have I never heard of this before?

Of course the LMS did have other third and fourth rail electric trains - North London (former LNWR) and in Merseyside, where trains switched between 3rd rail and 4th rail power supply depending on where they were. A small part of the Merseyside system was also used by trains of the late lamented Liverpool Overhead Railway, albeit only on special occasions ... eg: for some Aintree horse racing events.

The reason for complete segregation of the two systems was the signaling systems were incompatible. The last interface with the two lines though was not removed until the early 70's. This was a siding from the LT&S lines into the May & Baker factory between Dagenham East and Elm Park which crossed the District tracks but was not connected to them. This siding was only used at night after the District had ceased running.

A carry over from LTSR days to London Transport was the early Sunday morning trains to Aldgate East. There was a staff train to Whitechapel followed by two Aldgate East reversers half hour apart. I often waited at Plaistow (LMR staffed) for the staff train and the steam loco headed engineers train would often be first through the section on it's way to Lillie Bridge.

It was some of the then-new slam door stock that caught fire. They had problems with the HT side as they also did in Glasgow.

I started in 1967 and it was always underground stock and an underground staff train. At the time Bromley by Bow-Upminster were BR staffed (Midland, and Eastern Region staff reflecting it's history). There was another underground staff Barking to Upminster after the takeover in 1970. Upney-Upminster Bridge did have night foreman under LT from 1970.
There were very few night turn staff on any underground station in those days. Upminster depot had no night crews; Barking did. Parsons Green did and the yardmasters there acted as the station masters for the station. I was depot clerk there when the District Line became one man operation. It had 100 drivers and about 100 guards although guards could be called up from other stations where they worked when no guard duties.

Years ago I designed a speculative dual-voltage set to allow through working from the Tyneside Metro to the Gateshead Metro Centre via Newcastle Central.

The scenario above was mentioned as an objection to it.

The Eurostar trains that run to the south of France run on both 25kv AC and 1500 v DC, so yes this is proven technology.

Very interesting - its a shame that these planned services did not become reality. It has always baffled me that the Metro never got to the Metro Centre. Maybe though it helped save the traditional city centre as a retail destination.

Does any of your artwork still exist?

I joined LT in 1972. The Aldgate East reversers were definitely for Brick Lane market and the Houndsditch Warehouse (a discount department store). The area was much busier then as there was only very limited Sunday trading elsewhere.