towerman
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Posts: 2,957
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Post by towerman on Jun 26, 2024 11:23:33 GMT
If there is going to be stabling facilities at the southern end of the extension,wil it make Queen’s Park and London Rd redundant?
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Post by alpinejohn on Jun 26, 2024 12:35:01 GMT
This thread is increasingly difficult to follow..
What is actually driving the need for a new depot?
Is Stonebridge depot now so run down or physically constrained that they are unable to maintain the existing fleet?
Or is the current fleet so tired that it will need another major renovation round and to comply with latest H&Safety standards that will probably require construction of a costly new facility ( a bit like CLIP on steroids) which may end up costing more than progressively replacing the current fleet with an add on order to the Picaddilly fleet?
I think we all realise how Money seems to dominate whatever decisions are made. This will often mean decisions are driven by short term spending constraints rather than longer term strategy without some sort of external funding solution (sale/leaseback?).
So if a cheap alternative new depot site can be found on the current Bakerloo route, then that is almost certainly what will be chosen even if it means that an extra depot(sub) facility may eventually be required to deliver decent service when(if) the line gets extended - especially if it heads well into Southern Territory without a major depot/stabling facility being provided at the southern end of the route to provide/service ample trains at the start/end of services.
The Weardale former council depot is indeed the location I recall had been suggested as a potential southern depot location. However as we are still just talking - than it seems unlikely this facility would be complete and available to support/replace Stonebridge within the next 10 years.
Which really only leaves one further option whereby there is some sort of rolling renovation at Stonebridge to bring it up to date and potentially ready to support new rolling stock deliveries at sometime in the late 2030s.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jun 26, 2024 14:24:52 GMT
In regards to your first question, my understanding is: - The existing fleet is essentially life expired and needs replacing by the time an extension opens at the absolute latest (and ideally much sooner).
- Both depots need upgrading before can maintain a new fleet, and the works will necessitate closure of at least part of the depot while they are in progress.
- Neither depot is large enough to stable and maintain the entire existing fleet while the other is being upgraded.
- Stonebridge Park (at least) is constrained such that it isn't practical (maybe possible) to do the necessary upgrades piecemeal.
- The two depots, even at full capacity, are too small to stable (and maintain?) enough trains to operate the extension, so a depot (almost certainly at Wearside Road) is an integral part of the extension
- Stabling is required north of Queen's Park for operational purposes
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Post by jimbo on Jun 27, 2024 0:23:14 GMT
Wearside Council Depot site was in the consultations for line construction, and later for stabling. It would likely be too small to hold trains for a Hayes service, especially since the running lines would have to climb from tunnel level through that site to connect with the present line. More recently, the search for a new depot site in the north-west, or additional sidings for a larger fleet, was said to provide for a more frequent service and extension to Lewisham. Thus, if that search is successful, the Wearside site might not be required for a Lewisham service, but might be useful to hold trains for the Hayes extension, should that proceed.
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Post by jimbo on Jun 27, 2024 0:40:14 GMT
Tunnel construction from New Cross Gate in both directions has the convenience of a rail connection for spoil disposal and concrete segment delivery. But Burgess Park will be the base for tunnel construction towards Lambeth North, around a third of the route. There is, as yet, no mention of how that site will deal with those problems. For the New Cross Gate site and the other two-thirds of the route, the consultation said "We are proposing train lengths of circa 300 metres. We anticipate multiple train movements per day which would each remove the need for more than 60 lorries into and out of the site." Presumably, Burgess Park site would see such lorry movements to link with the New Cross Gate sidings.
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Post by jimbo on Jul 19, 2024 9:57:17 GMT
A new FoI reply here links to a 2020 report by Hatch Regeneris to the London Boroughs of Lewisham & Southwark, entitled: Bakerloo Line Extension - Local Economic Impact Assessment, here. At that time the proposal was for 36 trains per hour to Lewisham, with 24 trains per hour beyond. Conversion of the National Rail line to Hayes could involve a 6-month closure, but alternative National Rail stations would serve in the Borough of Lewisham during this period, whilst platforms and track are adjusted for step-free train access, and trial running under new signalling. The Borough favours moving Lower Sydenham station north to the Stanton Way and Southend Lane junction, next to Sainsbury’s, Stanton Square and former Bell Green Gas holders. The FoI states that this is not part of the TfL plan, but could receive future consideration. Apparently, the potential option to deliver the extension to Hayes concurrently with the construction of the tube line to Lewisham was the preferred option being pursued by TfL at that time.
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Post by Chris L on Jul 19, 2024 13:08:47 GMT
A new FoI reply here links to a 2020 report by Hatch Regeneris to the London Boroughs of Lewisham & Southwark, entitled: Bakerloo Line Extension - Local Economic Impact Assessment, here. At that time the proposal was for 36 trains per hour to Lewisham, with 24 trains per hour beyond. Conversion of the National Rail line to Hayes could involve a 6-month closure, but alternative National Rail stations would serve in the Borough of Lewisham during this period, whilst platforms and track are adjusted for step-free train access, and trial running under new signalling. The Borough favours moving Lower Sydenham station north to the Stanton Way and Southend Lane junction, next to Sainsbury’s, Stanton Square and former Bell Green Gas holders. The FoI states that this is not part of the TfL plan, but could receive future consideration. Apparently, the potential option to deliver the extension to Hayes concurrently with the construction of the tube line to Lewisham was the preferred option being pursued by TfL at that time. Lower Sydenham station is now surrounded by high rise buildings. No sense in moving it unless it involves raising the low bridge.
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Post by jimbo on Jul 20, 2024 2:58:08 GMT
report by Hatch Regeneris to the London Boroughs of Lewisham & Southwark, entitled: Bakerloo Line Extension - Local Economic Impact Assessment, here.
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Post by spsmiler on Jul 20, 2024 23:05:53 GMT
Yikes, 6 month closure? What are passengers sup[posed to do during this time - and if they find new routes will they return afterwards?
I am not old enough to remember but how long were the closures of the LNER service to Epping and Newbury Park via Woodford when tube trains replaced steam trains?
I feel sure that the bus replacement services when the East London line closed were cut back (reduced) during the works because of 'passenger evaporation' ie: passengers found the disruption to be so severe and so irksome that they made other arrangements. It took the extensions creating new journey possibilities (and service reductions to London Bridge whilst that station was rebuilt) to make the ELL busy again once it reopened.
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If the Bakerloo does go to Hayes will the fares be reduced to TfL / LU levels, thereby matching the Overground to West Croydon, etc
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Post by joshua on Jul 20, 2024 23:25:02 GMT
Would a solution be to provide better access which is to do a Rotherham Central and provide separate platforms at as many stations as possible on the Watford DC Line? Also, do you think with the 24 stock they will get given a TOPS code like the 1972 stock is 499/2s? Do people think the former line speed of 60mph on the DC lines will be restored post-24 stock? Why not use the national standard of ETCS as most of the Bakerloo line runs on the Network Rail metals with the Hayes extension that will just increase the amount? ETCS can provide ATO as shown by Thameslink. If Wiki is to be believed the 1972 stock uses 750v between Kilburn High Road and Harrow & Wealdstone post the introduction of the 710s. In relation to the bay line at Willesden Junction, it was realigned when the platform was lengthened so it now sits on the location of both bays so you wouldn't be able to fit an extra bay in anymore. During the Stonebridge Park closure could you not just use the London Overground depot at Willesden Junction and have a battery loco move the Bakerloo Line in or out of the depot or even better lay some fourth rail for the Bakerloo line? Is the plan to use the Network Rail Stonebridge Park Sidings for part of the Bakerloo Line Stonebridge Park depot rebuild? If so could you do as much work as possible on them and then bring them into use to allow for a part closure of the existing Stonebridge Park depot to allow for it to be brought up to the same standard as the new area of the depot? I think you could get at least ten extra spots to store Bakerloo trains on the Network Rail site. I thought the Network Rail Watford DC signalling dated from the 1970s. Also, could a way to enhance safety before the introduction of new signalling would be fitting of AWS to the Bakerloo Line trains so that then they can use the AWS equipment on the Watford DC Line, not sure they would need TPWS as the Tripcocks already fulfil that role. According to a Network Rail FOI platforms on the Watford DC Line for the joint running section seem to be set between 960mm and 1,000mm. Do the existing and future Bakerloo line trains include GSM-R for the joint running on the Network Rail section of the line? Do people think that the point work allowing trains to access Stonebridge Park depot will be upgraded to allow for faster clearing of the line, as it currently is 10mph could it be possible with some realignment to get 15-25mph out of it as far as the carriage washer to increase capacity or will not have a massive effect. Link to Network Rail FOI request = www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/data_on_current_platform_heights
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Post by jimbo on Jul 21, 2024 3:36:57 GMT
.... If the Bakerloo does go to Hayes will the fares be reduced to TfL / LU levels, thereby matching the Overground to West Croydon, etc The Hatch Regeneris report mentions that fares will fall to TfL standard levels.
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Post by Chris L on Jul 21, 2024 12:42:22 GMT
.... If the Bakerloo does go to Hayes will the fares be reduced to TfL / LU levels, thereby matching the Overground to West Croydon, etc The Hatch Regeneris report mentions that fares will fall to TfL standard levels. Fairly typical of a consultant's report. Ask the client for the answers they want.
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Post by jimbo on Jul 21, 2024 21:28:07 GMT
A new FoI reply here links to a 2020 report by Hatch Regeneris to the London Boroughs of Lewisham & Southwark, entitled: Bakerloo Line Extension - Local Economic Impact Assessment, here. At that time the proposal was for 36 trains per hour to Lewisham, with 24 trains per hour beyond ..... The Hayes branch has always been mentioned as a possibility, but the first step is to reach Lewisham. It seems to me that a Lewisham terminus could be achieved with a two-platform station, since Brixton and Walthamstow achieve this regularly with 36tph. But if a third of the service is to terminate there as suggested, then it will require three platforms to allow time for passengers on terminating trains to sort themselves out. If a clear commitment to the extension onto Network Rail is not made before plans to Lewisham are finalised, then we may end up with a North Greenwich layout anyway, just in case!
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Post by spsmiler on Jul 22, 2024 21:16:20 GMT
The Hatch Regeneris report mentions that fares will fall to TfL standard levels. That will delight many passengers and just as some people who live in the Croydon area prefer the slower and far cheaper alternative of Tramlink and District line to reach Zone 1 so similar will happen in south east London with people (who pay their fares via PAYG instead of period Travelcards) switching away from SouthEastern (etc) services to the Bakerloo line - simply because it saves them money.
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