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Post by chilsie on May 5, 2023 22:38:42 GMT
I tried searching for another thread on this topic in case I was missing it, but couldn’t seem to find anything. Apologies if I’ve made a mistake.
In any case, I come with a question regarding the S Stock’s manual announcement system that can be programmed to (poorly) output manual announcements to provide status updates for the lines across the network. This is a feature inherited from the Victoria Line, where it is implemented very well and very rarely is an announcement clearly robotic or audibly stitched together. The S Stock however, is an entirely different story.
Could anyone with better know-how than me perhaps explain the reason for how the S Stock programmable announcements and the 2009 Stock programmable announcements are so noticeably different in quality? I obviously can’t speak properly about the complexity of the system, but I can’t imagine they’re significantly different in terms of implementation? Is it just laziness on the part of those configuring the announcements?
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Post by bigvern on May 6, 2023 7:52:19 GMT
I have a feeling that the network announcements on the Victoria Line are sent to the trains from the line control centre itself, It would appear that the S stock may have this but the different control centres on the H&C, DIST & Met Lines are unable to communicate with the trains in the same way, maybe because of interunning fleets, or the control centres do not have the correct equipment yet to keep the trains updated.
Yes I think basic additional messaging is programmable by the operator if needs be on all stocks if they know how it is done,
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class411
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Post by class411 on May 6, 2023 8:16:15 GMT
It depends how much effort the people charged with production of the system are prepared to expend. To give an example, based on the message "This is an <X> line train to <Y>". If you are putting in minimum effort, you would just get the voice artist to record a list of applicable lines and a list of applicable destinations, together with the fragments: 'This is a' and 'line train to'. Then you arrange for the equipment to dynamically splice the relevant fragments to make the announcement. This can sound very clunky. On the C-Stock it would come out as, for example: "This is a ... Hammersmith and City ... line train to ... Hammersmith" (Where the ellipses are audibly significant pauses.) To get a really good sound, you need to record the voice artist reading a longer fragment for each line/station, and accurately extract the relevant word or phrase so that it has the correct inflection and cadence. e,g, "This is a District line train to" "This is a Hammersmith and City line train to" "This is a Metropolitan line train to" Providing the extracted segments have the correct spacing they can be spliced to create an very natural sounding result. (Because it is inferred from work on a system I designed for a non railway application, I expect someone will post to tell me I've got this entirely wrong  .) |
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Post by Dstock7080 on May 6, 2023 9:40:40 GMT
I have a feeling that the network announcements on the Victoria Line are sent to the trains from the line control centre itself, It would appear that the S stock may have this but the different control centres on the H&C, DIST & Met Lines are unable to communicate with the trains in the same way, maybe because of interunning fleets, or the control centres do not have the correct equipment yet to keep the trains updated. Yes I think basic additional messaging is programmable by the operator if needs be on all stocks if they know how it is done, There is now a single control room for the sub-surface Lines and they do indeed compile programmable messages to S Stock (such as today stating that St. James’s Park station is closed all day). Drivers have a selection of pre-recorded announcements available to them on S Stock, from “the next station is closed”, “beggars and buskers are not permitted on TfL trains and stations” etc. |
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Post by xtmw on May 6, 2023 10:13:58 GMT
I have a feeling that the network announcements on the Victoria Line are sent to the trains from the line control centre itself, It would appear that the S stock may have this but the different control centres on the H&C, DIST & Met Lines are unable to communicate with the trains in the same way, maybe because of interunning fleets, or the control centres do not have the correct equipment yet to keep the trains updated. Yes I think basic additional messaging is programmable by the operator if needs be on all stocks if they know how it is done, There is now a single control room for the sub-surface Lines and they do indeed compile programmable messages to S Stock (such as today stating that St. James’s Park station is closed all day). Drivers have a selection of pre-recorded announcements available to them on S Stock, from “the next station is closed”, “beggars and buskers are not permitted on TfL trains and stations” etc. The disruption announcements seem to change everyday, a few days ago it was 'Customers should use alternative means of travel to reach their destination' and another example, 'District line service is suspended between....', rather than 'Please use an alternative route to complete your journey or seek station staff for assistance' and 'The District Line is part suspended between....' |
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Post by d7666 on May 6, 2023 19:16:57 GMT
This is a huge subject and to be perfectly honest I do not have the time to type it all out.
2 points though, with lots of TLAs.
Since May 2018 (5 years ago now) all SSL have been in one Control Room as far as service management and line control are concerned. This was 4LM migration step SLC moving both Earls Court and Baker Street service managers and line information specialists (LIS) all to Hammersmith SCC. SLC predated any CBTC migration i.e. before any SMA and before any signallers moved. It is the LIS who does the variable / manual info using ICS.
In Hammersmith SCC there is a central SSL system known as ICS. It does more than train info (but no digression here). The reason for any variation between different days disruptions are :
[1] no two days disruptions are ever exactly the same therefore no days announcements are the same
[2] there is a comprehensive library of pre-recorded announcement text strings that if the LIS inputs into ICS a disruption between ANY two stations ANYWHERE on the LU network simply by clicking on those two stations creates automated full announcements texts to go to SSL stations or S trains as necessary; these are computed automatically to vary for where on the railway (train or station) they are to be sent; input a slighty different station pair, or different disruption reason, and some quite different announcements might be generated
[3] LIS can alternatively manually type into CIS bespoke messages that are sent likewise; obviously exact wording varies from exact disruption event to event, and, being human, LIS to LIS
ICS is independent of CBTC SMA nor is ICS is part of CBTC; ICS is SSL wide; however although it has always been 4LM wide, it was not functionally all ready at SLC, it was phased over time, phases not linked to SMA migration calendar; and CIS is independent of the train borne driver selected fixed info texts held on S-stock itself
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on May 6, 2023 19:32:43 GMT
some of those acronyms expanded:
SMA = Signal Migration Area
4LM = Four Lines Modernisation (i.e. the upgrade of the sub-surface lines)
CBTC = Communication-Based Train Control (i.e. the new signalling system used for automatic operation)
SLC and ICS I don't know, but I'd guess the latter one is something like the Intelligent or Integrated Control System
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Post by d7666 on May 6, 2023 19:41:34 GMT
some of those acronyms expanded: SMA = Signal Migration Area 4LM = Four Lines Modernisation (i.e. the upgrade of the sub-surface lines) CBTC = Communication-Based Train Control (i.e. the new signalling system used for automatic operation) SLC and ICS I don't know, but I'd guess the latter one is something like the Intelligent or Integrated Control System SLC = Service and Line Control (a project specific TLA) ICS = Integrated Communications System (and it does a lot more than just pass. info.) |
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Post by xtmw on May 6, 2023 21:33:50 GMT
Messages like this - short and gets the the point (unlike some other status announcements I've heard)
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Tom
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Post by Tom on May 6, 2023 22:35:05 GMT
some of those acronyms expanded: SMA = Signal Migration Area What the 'S' stands for is debatable. I've heard Signalling, System, Sub-Surface, and Seltrac, all of which could be perfectly valid. My personal thought is that it is Sub-Surface, as the Northern Line had NMAs (Northern Migration Areas), though I probably ought to check what the contract documents say it is. In the old days we would have simply called it Stage 1, 2, 3 etc., which would have been a lot more straightforward! |
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Harsig
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Post by Harsig on May 8, 2023 18:07:24 GMT
In the old days we would have simply called it Stage 1, 2, 3 etc., which would have been a lot more straightforward! STAGE perhaps standing for ‘Signalling Transfer And General Enhancement’…😉 |
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Post by d7666 on May 8, 2023 20:06:26 GMT
STAGE perhaps standing for ‘Signalling Transfer And General Enhancement’…😉[/quote] Signalling Transfer And General Entropy ?  |
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Post by d7666 on May 8, 2023 20:07:42 GMT
My personal thought is that it is Sub-Surface, as the Northern Line had NMAs (Northern Migration Areas), But the Jubilee TBTC migration didn't have JMAs did it ? At least I do not remember that. |
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Post by roman80 on May 8, 2023 21:36:06 GMT
I'm certainly one who thinks announcements about delays somewhat stretch the truth, such as minor delays on the jubilee which leave ten minute gaps between trains at Canary Wharf, London Bridge and Waterloo in the evening peak, but even after 30 years of commuting I was surprised last week to hear on S stock that there were 'minor delays on the Central line due to a derailment'. It's great that the announcements are accurate but I did find that one a bit worrying until I got home and could research what had happened.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on May 12, 2023 17:02:16 GMT
My personal thought is that it is Sub-Surface, as the Northern Line had NMAs (Northern Migration Areas), But the Jubilee TBTC migration didn't have JMAs did it ? No, they were simply known as J1 to J5. I have confirmed today via two independent sources that the S does indeed stand for SSR. It's only taken me four and half years! |
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