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Post by zbang on Apr 28, 2023 15:49:34 GMT
Breaking this off the Kentish Town thread- Does anyone know why that station would need bespoke escalators at all? Or what specifically is/was out-of-ordinary?
I have to assume that there would have been only a few variations installed (other than length and tread/step width), so something must have driven a decision to install these different machines.
Are there other stations with uncommon but modern escalators? |
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Post by Chris L on Apr 28, 2023 16:30:29 GMT
Mod edit [Antharro] - Quote removed. Please be selective about the part of a post you wish to quote rather than the whole post verbatim, particularly if you are replying to the previous post in the thread.
All Underground escalators on the Underground are bespoke because they have to fit in the available space. This includes the bits you can't see underneath.
You only have to look at them to see they are built to a higher standard than those in shopping malls etc.
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t697
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Post by t697 on Apr 28, 2023 16:54:43 GMT
Are the Kentish Town escalators from when LUL was trying less bespoke and arguably less robust and durable escalators perhaps?
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Post by zbang on Apr 28, 2023 17:06:45 GMT
By that token, -all- escalators (and elevators) are bespoke as they are built-to-order for a specific job and location, albeit with as many standard parts as the manufacturer can manage. What makes Kentish Town so special that necessary parts are hard to come by? (One thing I can imagine is tread width. If the maker uses, say, 5cm increments in width, and KT used a 97cm wide tread, that would qualify. OTOH we could also ask why TfL didn't go with 95cm for standardization. Just guessing here.) Regarding build standards, from what I can tell most makers have multiple "grades" of machine, specifically because some will operate with lower loads and duty than others (e.g department stores vs busy transit centers). US-centric, but it came up in a quick search- "Heavy-Duty Transportation System Escalator Design Guidelines" www.apta.com/wp-content/uploads/Standards_Documents/APTA-RT-EE-RP-001-02.pdf |
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Post by d7666 on Apr 28, 2023 18:20:57 GMT
Kentish Town escalators bespoke Possibly just a different supplier who might not be in business and more ? Or perhaps over installation or subsequent maintenance has found to not be robust and therefore not pursued further as a vendor ? I can think of one line's signals control system that is routinely described internally as bespoke, but that system really is unique because at installation it was the beezneez then the hardware OEM ceased making the kit around which the signals supplier based it hence not used elsewhere. |
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Post by Chris L on Apr 28, 2023 18:36:58 GMT
LUL went for an alternative supplier for the escalators at Angel. They were tested using sandbags.
All went to plan until they went into service. When people started walking down the treads separated.
They had to be taken out of use for remedial work.
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Post by zbang on Apr 28, 2023 22:27:17 GMT
Possibly just a different supplier who might not be in business and more ? That I would buy, although "unavailable" now is not "bespoke" when installed (implying it was made made special to order). One could as easily say "those were a one-off so some of the parts are now unobtainable" and probably be more accurate. Assuming that's true for KT. |
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brigham
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Post by brigham on Apr 29, 2023 7:39:47 GMT
Don't forget, that's from a TfL announcement.
'Bespoke' can mean anything the corporate journalists want it to...
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Post by burkitt on Apr 30, 2023 8:33:37 GMT
The escalators at Kentish Town were manufactured by APV Baker. LINK
According to the Baker Perkins Historical Society LINK"By July 1992, APV Baker had won orders for 23 escalators worth £9m from London Underground. The division’s innovative modular design reduced installation times by half. The division installed the new escalators at King’s Cross following the disastrous fire and others at Manor House, Wood Green and Chancery Lane, as well as carrying out re-furbishment and overhaul of many other existing London Underground escalators. The division had worked on 20% of LUL’s escalators by 1992." So they are hardly unique to Kentish Town. However, the 2013 TfL feasibility study for escalator replacement at King's Cross St Pancras states that: "The escalator division of APV Baker was acquired by Kone in 1998 and stopped manufacturing in the UK, parts for APV escalators are now difficult
to source." LINKAnd that was a decade ago, so I expect part supply has only got worse since then. Attributing the problem to the escalators being "bespoke" is clearly a misunderstanding/simplification/untruth on the part of TfL PR though. |
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Post by spsmiler on Apr 30, 2023 18:39:46 GMT
Yes it would be better to be open and honest but to say "unavailable because the supplier was bought out and the new owners promptly removed this design from their project catalogue" is a bit of a mouthful.
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Post by straphanger on Apr 30, 2023 19:05:50 GMT
I thought that "bespoke" means that something was made specifically to a special set of requirements. Since parts for the escalator are no longer available they would have to be made specifially to the requirements to fit the Kentish Town escalators. That's "bespoke", as opposed to "off the peg".
That aside, will Thameslink be re-instating some of the services that no longer run to make up for the lack of a Northern Line service?
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Post by Tom on Apr 30, 2023 21:41:58 GMT
As not every escalator has the same vertical rise (and not every rise will be a multiple of a specific dimension *), and at least one rises at a different angle from the standard, there will always be some bespoke parts. That's not to mean that every part is bespoke; though I would expect Kone to have a 'Heavy Duty' range for customers such as LU. Yes it would be better to be open and honest but to say "unavailable because the supplier was bought out and the new owners promptly removed this design from their project catalogue" is a bit of a mouthful. I'd also suggest your statement is equally misleading. Kone bought out APV in 1998. By 2013 (some 15 years later) it was getting harder to get APV Parts. Fifteen years in an industry like this is hardly prompt - it's moving at a glacial pace! A 1998 mobile phone would have been obsolete within five years, never mind fifteen. And is anyone still using Windows 98 now? * - Yes, I'm aware it will be a multiple of a very small dimension such as 1mm, but let's be realistic. |
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Post by alpinejohn on May 1, 2023 6:51:40 GMT
Moving on from the rather inconsequential debate over the actual words used in a press release - what seems clear is the escalators are going to be replaced - Yippee.
However I wonder why this work is going to take so long?
A while back Heathrow T5 was fitted out with heavy duty escalators where access was going to be very problematic. So rather than supply the escalator as a fully complete module which many firms seem to offer as their default option, Schindler provided escalators in three more manageable sections (top middle bottom) which could be more easily manouvered within the building and re-assembled on site fairly quickly with treads motors and handrails etc added later.
As is fairly common with major projects these escalators were manufactured and fully tested at the factory before being deconstructed and delivered to site to slot in with the construction schedule with the necessary resources put in place so they could be swiftly moved from truck to final installation location in just a matter of hours using skates and winches. Doubtless it took much longer to complete the fit out, testing and safety sign-offs before the escalators could actually be put into use.
But this does raise the question of why shut the whole station for so long?
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Post by Chris M on May 1, 2023 7:15:17 GMT
Well they have to fully dismantle the existing two escalators, make any necessary changes and repairs to the supporting structure, then install and fully test two new escalators in a cramped working environment with limited access. I would be extremely surprised if it was physically possible to get a section as large as a third of one of these escalators into the shaft without demolishing large portions of the surface building.
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Post by Dstock7080 on May 1, 2023 7:19:14 GMT
A modern airport terminal is renowned for having very spacious and high ceilings where things can be manoeuvred inside by crane.
Kentish Town has a small street entrance, narrow ticket hall and tubular escalator shaft.
You need to disassemble the existing machines to fit through these spaces, repair the foundation and insert the new machines in manageable pieces.
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Post by rapidtransitman on May 1, 2023 15:12:11 GMT
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Post by theblackferret on May 2, 2023 10:42:42 GMT
I used to work in Savile Row(1984-89) & don't recall there or in lunchtime wanderings through Soho or Mayfair seeing any bespoke escalator manufacturers.
Suits,oh yes!
As a serious point, would Kentish Town be better served by installing lifts instead of elevators or would that result in a more-prolonged closure?
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Post by Chris M on May 2, 2023 10:46:45 GMT
Lifts as well as escalators would be the ideal (as the latter offer a greater capacity), but that would be additional work. The station did originally have lifts, but they went to an intermediate level between the platforms and even assuming the shafts haven't been reused for something over the year (I don't know) they would not offer step-free access to either platform without additional construction.
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Post by alpinejohn on May 2, 2023 17:36:43 GMT
The surface structure appears to be a typical Leslie Green - Red brick arches effort and presumably designed to support potential development above. However in this case google earth shows that apart from some ventilation kit the roof remains empty. So in this case I wonder if they plan to remove/renew the roof which could make it easier to remove the old escalators and indeed crane in the replacements.
As for potentially reusing the old lift shafts - inevitably anything can be done if you throw enough money at something. Given the platforms are at different levels then the potential answer is to excavate the old shaft down sufficiently to offer level access to the lower platform reached via a new cross passage to the platform with a second boarding level created above that to serve the upper platform level. Again removing the roof (which must be many years old by now) could make this sort of retrofit work easier and if they intend providing escalators and lifts to offer full step free access this may explain why they need to shut the station for quite so long.
I would not be surprised to find that the facade is already a listed building, however I doubt removing and eventually replacing the roof is prohibited by any specific listing details.
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Post by burkitt on May 2, 2023 18:57:36 GMT
Until 2020 there was a Wahaca restaurant in the first floor of Kentish Town station building which would have precluded craning in escalator modules from above. With that now closed, and no new tenant found to my knowledge, entry via the roof could be an option, if
a) any reduction in construction cost isn't outweighed by potential lost rent from a new tenant, reconstruction costs for the roof/first floor/booking hall ceiling etc, cost of road closures for cranes etc
b) the project team were aware of the opportunity in time to include it in their planning without ending up increasing the cost and schedule owing to late changes
As for step free access, though obviously ideal I expect Kentish Town is low priority because the long-planned full rebuild one stop south at Camden Town (including full step free access) would take precedence for any available funding.
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Post by Chris M on May 2, 2023 20:10:03 GMT
If there were any plans to add step-free access as part of these works, you can be certain that the press release would mention it - that it isn't means there isn't. The present priority for step-free access is to fill in large gaps first, and while Kenitsh Town is in such a gap, fitting lifts here would be a major and expensive undertaking while it can be added almost for free at Camden Town as part of the major rebuild that is required for other reasons. Additionally, Camden Town offers a shorter OSI with the North London Line and Camden Road is already step free while Kentish Town West is not. Especially while the Thameslink station remains without step-free access (and as the stations either side do, don't expect that to change very soon) Kentish Town will not be near the top of the priority list for step-free funding. Even if access through the roof at Kentish Town was possible (which I think is unlikely given burkitt's points) I don't think it would be much use for craning machinery into an angled shaft. |
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Post by d7666 on May 3, 2023 15:20:38 GMT
step-free access Kenitsh Town Kentish Town main line is actually a pain all round. Pity, as it could be a useful better utilised interchange. Thameslink step free access issue has been the subject in the local commuter group but AFAIK nothing happening. It is a big gap. I suggest though there may be a "you first" stalemate with which of main line and LU moves first on doing it. At the moment one argument that can be used to not do anything is one party could say it is less effective as an interchange if the other party does not do the same. Not an argument I agree with, but one that the miserly Whitehall and city hall accounts spreadsheet pushers probably cling on to. Kentish Town is also a pain in another sense as under the (now completed) Thameslink route upgrade ideally it ought to have been a 12car station***, not because 12car were ever planned on the stopping services that call there, only 8car, but as a bolt hole turn back location close to but outside of the core during service disruption. Extending the platforms is blocked by substantial structures that while not impossible civils would demand impossible ££££s to do it. In turn, there was a concern that IF it were used as a bolt hole, this would create tube over crowding issues. Returning to subject, as a regular although low frequency user of some 30+ years now, for main line / tube interchange, the whole place, above and below ground is cramped and not well laid out or adaptable. I can see why they need to close the place just for escalator works they probably need working space - especially at surface level. In peak periods there can be substantial passenger flows to/from Thameslink - admittedly spiky and brief - but suspect enough to trigger crowding issues on the stairs access if that were all that were left open. Also, another issue is that a total closure for a period may be less overall disruptive to attempting to keep the place open and work around the works. *** before someone points out ASDO can and does resolve a 12car 700 stopping at an 8car station, that works well if the train continues in the same direction - but major issues with turning back a 12car in a 8car platform, which is what you need to do with a bolt hole, when it comes to berthing, signal sighting, etc etc. 12car 700s I have used a couple of times at Kentish Town during disruptions but only through trains calling there none reversing. |
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