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Post by taylor on Feb 12, 2023 20:50:50 GMT
If it’s been debated before please consign to Golder's Green, Hoop Lane!
What are the current naming conventions for new stations in London? Are there any? With the opening of Crossrail 1, it looks like some valuable opportunities to rationalise are being kept up the TfL sleeves until the opening of Crossrail. 2. (Now will that be the Charles, William or George Line? No answers please.)
The Central London Railway assigned the high-status name ‘Bond Street’ to its premises a hundred metres away at 381 Oxford Street, past Davies Street, which would have been more accurate. In fact, there are several instances of station names being given prestige as opposed to location-accurate names—Mansion House!! (Prestigious station names were seen as quite useful marketing tools for real estate agents, just like the old Director Exchange Names like ABBey, TATe, TEMple or MAYfair and later 071/081 or today Oyster Card Zone 1—Nine Elms!?) in a tradition that pre-dated Roy Brooks, some stations are misnomers. South Wimbledon would more accurately be Merton. Then there was the cross-street problem with Tottenham Court Road having two names for nine months (the other was the contiguous Oxford Street on the Hampstead tube. I'd have preferred St. Giles for that station). There are duplicates many metres apart. Bethnal Green OG is 600m from Bethnal Green CL and ~250m from the eponymous green space. In fact they’re not even linked on the OSI list. Some suburbs have several stations—Acton. What does 'Main Line' really say to the non-Londoner who has no concept of the GWR or that actually only that E-Line local trains stop at 'Main Line' Go figure!
OK problem stated. For cross streets I like the RATP Métro system e.g. Réaumur Sébastapol, Sèvres Babylone etc. but beyond that, what should the convention for the future be. As signage, strip maps, are the only longer lasting printed assets, it would be marginally cheaper than when timetables and tickets would have had to be changed. Network maps seem to change pretty regularly (the hokey cokey appearances/dispperances of Thameslink on the Tube map notwithstanding). it’s a decades-long slow moving project making use of convenient opportunities, which can only be implemented when cost efficiencies and new lines are contemplated. But it should be started. Suggestion, the Bakerloo line station at Asylum Road could be called Hatcham, the name of that district, rather than the vague Old Kent Road. Should there be a convention? If yes what should be its guiding principles?
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Post by taylor on Feb 12, 2023 20:56:53 GMT
If station related is a better location, could a moderator kindly move this thread. Thx-
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Feb 12, 2023 21:44:28 GMT
I think here's fine.
With regard to Acton Main Line it only serves to indicate that this is the station on a 'main line' as opposed to the former NLR stations which weren't. So, to go to central London by 'main line' train (as opposed to Underground, you went there rather than to Acton Central. interestingly it was simply known as 'Acton' until 1949, and when you refer to E-Line I still think of the buses that were branded as such in the early 1990s!
Your point about South Wimbledon is a good one, it did have the suffix '(Merton)' on opening.
There is of course a historical precedent for all of this, with three choices of name being provided for Oakwood station, which were Oakwood, Merryhills and East Barnet. However despite those choices the station eventually opened as Enfield West despite Enfield being several miles distant.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Feb 12, 2023 22:32:44 GMT
There were public consultations for the names of Nine Elms and Battersea Power Station stations, iirc while the line was in the late planning stages. I think the same has happened for the new stations on the Bakerloo line extension - I believe two are on the Old Kent Road, and one of the stations is planned to that name with the other taking its name from a local park approximately opposite.
The only completely new station on the Elizabeth line is Woolwich. I don't recall any consultation about that name, but as it was paid for by developers I guess they got to pick the name? IMO it should be Woolwich Riverside given that is both descriptive (being much closer to the river than the other two Woolwich stations) and the council's branding for the area in which it sits (being within the grounds of the old Woolwich Arsenal, and closest to the riverboat pier of that name, it actually has a better claim to that name than the mainline and DLR station, but usurping would have been far more disruptive than it would be worth).
Going from memory, when the Croxley Link was still a thing the locals wanted one of the stations to be known as "Vicarage Road" (due to the football ground rather than the street itself) however TfL(?) objected as they didn't want any new stations named after streets/roads outside central London (I'd have said Zone 1, but an Old Kent Road station would break that rule), so "Watford Vicarage Road" was settled on as a compromise.
The only actual conventions I am aware of for TfL stations are that stations with a conjunction always spell it "&" rather than "and", and (unlike National Rail) punctuation is used (compare "St. Paul's" on the tube vs "St Johns" on National Rail).
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Post by taylor on Feb 13, 2023 0:11:28 GMT
... The only actual conventions I am aware of for TfL stations are that stations with a conjunction always spell it "&" rather than "and", and (unlike National Rail) punctuation is used (compare "St. Paul's" on the tube vs "St Johns" on National Rail). Will revert, but had to add this , which proves your comment and its two, wait a minute, three spellings  : lookup.london/st-james-park-grammar/www.flickr.com/photos/robgeraghty/49216510972/ |
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Post by Chris M on Feb 13, 2023 0:49:50 GMT
Indeed, there was a reason I didn't choose St. James/James'/James's Park as my example!
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Post by 35b on Feb 13, 2023 8:33:36 GMT
Your point about South Wimbledon is a good one, it did have the suffix '(Merton)' on opening. Growing up in the general area, and with friends living there, South Wimbledon was what the area was known as. By that time (late 80s/early 90s), “Merton” was the borough, and had more or less ceased to be used more precisely. |
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Post by Chris L on Feb 13, 2023 15:19:27 GMT
The only completely new station on the Elizabeth line is Woolwich. I don't recall any consultation about that name, but as it was paid for by developers I guess they got to pick the name? IMO it should be Woolwich Riverside given that is both descriptive (being much closer to the river than the other two Woolwich stations) and the council's branding for the area in which it sits (being within the grounds of the old Woolwich Arsenal, and closest to the riverboat pier of that name, it actually has a better claim to that name than the mainline and DLR station, but usurping would have been far more disruptive than it would be worth). From memory the developers wanted the name to be Royal Woolwich which is wrong. Woolwich is part of the borough of Royal Greenwich. The station is some distance from the pier and the plain Woolwich doesn't seem to be causing any problems. |
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Post by melikepie on Feb 13, 2023 17:02:03 GMT
Sometimes compass points don't make sense. For example, why is East Dulwich north of North Dulwich?
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Post by Chris M on Feb 13, 2023 17:22:46 GMT
For compass points not making sense Canterbury is always my go-to example - Canterbury East is southwest of the city centre and almost due south of Canterbury West, which is north of the city centre.
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Post by taylor on Feb 13, 2023 18:17:01 GMT
For compass points not making sense ... Compass Points...when do they make sense? During the 19th C. sprawl of suburbia, it’s arguable that developers / railway companies (sometimes one and the same!) preyed on their topographically uninformed target customers and sought the cachet of affluence to draw such aspirational middle-class prospects to perhaps-just-a-little-bit-out-of-the-way places. South Wimbledon: “Of course you'’ll be able to stroll past the Windmill and along the Common” was a dream they may have peddled to recoup their investments. South Peckham or North Dulwich? which had the better chance, the place up the hill of course, nearer where the rich folks live? But as compass points are inevitably pointing the way in this discussion, can someone tell me where is the convention which calls for compass-point-suffixes and prefixes to be applied willy-nilly: Clapham North, Clapham South and South Wimbledon on the same line as are Dagenham East and South Kensington; Hounslow West and South Harrow; South Kenton and Lambeth North. Some have historical significance, e.g. until relatively recently (1497) Richmond was known as Sheen (separate thread on etymology!) and East Sheen is actually east of it and Tudor England would never have called the City on the Test Hampton South! So why the compass points all over the place in London? |
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Post by Chris M on Feb 13, 2023 18:43:12 GMT
Generally compass points in settlement names are at the start and in station names are at the end. So for example a station called "Wimbledon South" should be a station in the southern part of/south of the centre of a place called Wimbledon while one named "South Wimbledon" should be the main/only station serving a settlement called "South Wimbledon". So in theory you could have stations called "South Wimbledon North" and "South Wimbledon South".
There are of course many exceptions to this (and probably every) rule!
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Post by taylor on Feb 13, 2023 20:25:19 GMT
Generally compass points in settlement names are at the start and in station names are at the end. So for example a station called "Wimbledon South" should be a station in the southern part of/south of the centre of a place called Wimbledon while one named "South Wimbledon" should be the main/only station serving a settlement called "South Wimbledon". So in theory you could have stations called "South Wimbledon North" and "South Wimbledon South". There are of course many exceptions to this (and probably every) rule! Well, I've had to kick the ball around this town for nigh-on 60 years before I learned that Chris M. Thank you! You live and learn. If you click on the link, it should take you to a map I've centred about on Battersea Park. About a third of the way across the top there's a little drop-down menu 'Map v'. If you select 1860 (it's one of the best periods for 19th C detail) You can wander around and find some of the settlement names in use then. Some, like Hopsley Down - the area across from the Tower of London, where the GLA used to be based - have AFAIK completely passed into disuse. www.theundergroundmap.com/map.html?item=&id=620 |
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Post by d7666 on Feb 13, 2023 21:56:40 GMT
Canterbury East is southwest of the city centre and almost due south of Canterbury West, which is north of the city centre. Canterbury is a spectacularly dotty example isn't it ? Especially as both stations lie on the same longitude line (well as near as damn it for practical purposes without going into minute (pun intended) decimal places). Not far away, Maidstone E and W similarly are not where one might expect them to be once you include Barracks station in the equation. Anyway, my main comment to this thread, on naming generally, is that it must be near impossible to define a rigid naming convention that would 100.00% apply in every case. There will always be exceptions, be it in points of the compass, or what road / street / cowpath / other right of way, or anything else a station is named after.. |
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Post by d7666 on Feb 13, 2023 22:06:44 GMT
I'm waiting for someone to come along and rename
White City
Shepherds Bush,
Shepherds Bush Market
Stratford
Stratford International DLR
to
West Westfield North
West Westfield East
West Westfield West
East Westfield South
East Westfield North
respectively.
< runs for cover >
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Post by zbang on Feb 13, 2023 22:43:04 GMT
For completeness, I'll mention the madness of railway timetable directions, which occasionally come close to the compass direction, and the use of Up/Down where London isn't involved e.g. Liverpool-Hull (there may be a method/convention, I'm just not aware of it).
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Post by 35b on Feb 13, 2023 22:54:56 GMT
For compass points not making sense ... Compass Points...when do they make sense? During the 19th C. sprawl of suburbia, it’s arguable that developers / railway companies (sometimes one and the same!) preyed on their topographically uninformed target customers and sought the cachet of affluence to draw such aspirational middle-class prospects to perhaps-just-a-little-bit-out-of-the-way places. South Wimbledon: “Of course you'’ll be able to stroll past the Windmill and along the Common” was a dream they may have peddled to recoup their investments. Being picky, and channelling my 30 year old A Level geography, South Wimbledon definitely did not channel impressions of the Common - Wimbledon got progressively less smart as development spread down the hill. |
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Post by Chris M on Feb 14, 2023 0:45:19 GMT
For completeness, I'll mention the madness of railway timetable directions, which occasionally come close to the compass direction, and the use of Up/Down where London isn't involved e.g. Liverpool-Hull (there may be a method/convention, I'm just not aware of it). AIUI the convention was generally for up to be towards one of: - London
- the company's head office
- (on a single-ended branch line) the junction with the mainline
- the largest town on the line
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Post by zbang on Feb 14, 2023 7:02:57 GMT
Largest or most important, at the time, in the eyes of the directors. Makes me wonder what the tie-breakers might have been for things like branches between to main lines. A coin toss may have been involved.
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Post by trt on Feb 14, 2023 12:38:24 GMT
Largest or most important, at the time, in the eyes of the directors. Makes me wonder what the tie-breakers might have been for things like branches between to main lines. A coin toss may have been involved. Yeah, but they have to then agree on what head's up or tail's down actually means. |
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Post by stapler on Feb 14, 2023 15:41:21 GMT
Of course, the LPTB, when they acquired the ex-GE branch to Loughton/Epping, promptly renamed "George Lane" to "South Woodford", even though the old name is still there 75 yrs later in brackets on old signage. The GER must have adhered to street names - eg St James St [note no apostrophe] Rectory Rd, and Wood Street. Sometimes, the railways' conventions led to local usage changing - eg, when they changed Hale End to Highams Park &HE in 1894 to attract trippers to the "most beautiful lake within a day's travel of London" in the park of Highams mansion, the new name stuck.
One wonders if the GEML new station to be called (we hear) Beaulieu Park - east of Chelmsford, might be better called Chelmsford East; at least the punters could pronounce that.
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brigham
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Post by brigham on Feb 15, 2023 8:42:23 GMT
Unless you incline towards the Imp of the Perverse, it might be a good convention to avoid station names that aren't immediately pronounceable on a phonetic basis.
It goes for street names, too.
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Post by zbang on Feb 15, 2023 15:51:51 GMT
Unless you incline towards the Imp of the Perverse, it might be a good convention to avoid station names that aren't immediately pronounceable on a phonetic basis. Like Woolwich  ? |
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Post by taylor on Feb 15, 2023 19:04:30 GMT
Of course, the LPTB, when they acquired the ex-GE branch to Loughton/Epping, promptly renamed "George Lane" to "South Woodford", even though the old name is still there 75 yrs later in brackets on old signage. The GER must have adhered to street names - eg St James St [note no apostrophe] Rectory Rd, and Wood Street. Sometimes, the railways' conventions led to local usage changing - eg, when they changed Hale End to Highams Park &HE in 1894 to attract trippers to the "most beautiful lake within a day's travel of London" in the park of Highams mansion, the new name stuck. One wonders if the GEML new station to be called (we hear) Beaulieu Park - east of Chelmsford, might be better called Chelmsford East; at least the punters could pronounce that. I'm pretty sure there are other ‘bracketed’ station suffixes on platform signs, which are still extant. Does anyone know where these are? |
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Post by jimbo on Feb 15, 2023 19:15:17 GMT
Why is it Earl's Court, but Barons Court? And, of course, Ravenscourt Park.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Feb 15, 2023 20:41:22 GMT
I seem to remember the apostrophe in Earl's Court was a Harold Hutchinson thing.
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Post by Chris L on Feb 15, 2023 20:42:25 GMT
Why is it Earl's Court, but Barons Court? And, of course, Ravenscourt Park. Several barons. |
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Post by jimbo on Feb 15, 2023 21:21:09 GMT
Several barons would be Barons' Court.
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Post by straphanger on Feb 15, 2023 22:07:23 GMT
Sometimes compass points don't make sense. For example, why is East Dulwich north of North Dulwich? And why is West Finchley east of Finchley Central, (but not as far east as East Finchley)? I suppose we could have Finchley Central, Slightly East Finchley and Very East Finchley. |
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Feb 16, 2023 12:56:52 GMT
SOUTH GREENFORD is further north than much of Greenford
East Greenford would have been much more appropriate, but
WEST PERIVALE would have been even more accurate.
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