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Post by gals on Dec 17, 2022 9:36:42 GMT
I’m due to land into Heathrow and wanted to use the Elizabeth line to get home. I need help adding my railcard to my Oyster card as I’ve just renewed it.
Does anyone know if the staff at the National Rail station will be trained to do this on the machines (or even if they have machines capable of this)…or am I going to have to trek to the tube station to do this and then all that way over to national rail for the train?
Thanks
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Post by spsmiler on Dec 17, 2022 17:17:20 GMT
I recently asked for this to be done at Ilford but was told that this was not possible as they do not have oyster readers at the ticket office.
The reality however is that they used to have such machines but a mainline railway ticketing upgrade (sic) removed that facility.
I ended up having it done at Gants Hill. The member of staff who did it had to log in to a ticket machine and use 'staff only' functions, plus he carefully checked my railcard's validity (date, type of railcard, etc).
If you arrive at T5 then I think the stations are quite close.
Here is a thought for you - but I need others here to confirm my facts. If I am right then train travel (possibly only Elizabeth line and Heathrow Express ... I am unsure) within the airport is free of charge. To save you from a long walk catch a train to T5 and then travel to central London on the Elizabeth line.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Dec 17, 2022 19:02:37 GMT
If I am right then train travel (possibly only Elizabeth line and Heathrow Express ... I am unsure) within the airport is free of charge. Free travel using Oyster or contactless is available between Terminals and Hatton Cross on the Piccadilly Line also. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Dec 18, 2022 10:36:47 GMT
Drifting slightly, but does anyone know when we are going to be able to add rail cards to credit/debit cards (if it isn't already done).
They've had a few years to sort that out now and it will be a shame if they let it remain as yet another example of failed 'joined up thinking'.
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Post by Chris L on Dec 18, 2022 12:43:13 GMT
Drifting slightly, but does anyone know when we are going to be able to add rail cards to credit/debit cards (if it isn't already done). They've had a few years to sort that out now and it will be a shame if they let it remain as yet another example of failed 'joined up thinking'. I'd be surprised if that happens. Could be one of the reasons why Oyster survives. |
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Post by Hutch on Dec 18, 2022 13:07:41 GMT
Could be one of the reasons why Oyster survives. Certainly why I continue to use Oyster, so my senior rail card can be added and prior to that, my annual Gold Card. |
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Post by class411 on Dec 18, 2022 13:37:24 GMT
Drifting slightly, but does anyone know when we are going to be able to add rail cards to credit/debit cards (if it isn't already done). They've had a few years to sort that out now and it will be a shame if they let it remain as yet another example of failed 'joined up thinking'. I'd be surprised if that happens. Why? It's not difficult * ** * Unless you only ask idiots if it can be done. ** It might be necessary to make post transaction adjustments ***. *** Although with the cost of memory what it is now, it would be possible (from the chips POV)to store a couple of CC/DB numbers for every man woman and child in the UK for less than a tenner a gate. (Obviously you couldn't actually update all the gates for a couple of quid each.) |
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Post by Chris M on Dec 18, 2022 15:48:56 GMT
The fact that after so many years it hasn't happened rather suggests that it isn't actually easy.
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Post by class411 on Dec 18, 2022 16:02:49 GMT
The fact that after so many years it hasn't happened rather suggests that it isn't actually easy. Perhaps. Or that some considerable time ago, when computer hardware was a lot more expensive than it is now, someone said it wasn't feasible, and no one has ever had the nous to revisit the question since. Or it's as someone mentioned a couple of years ago in relation to driverless operation. There are those who are simply determined to find obstacles, real or imagined, to any proposed new ideas. Since we know that all current gates can read a CC/DD, check that it is extant, valid, and has sufficient credit, and can communicate that information to the the main gate mechanism, just how difficult can it be to interrogate a list of numbers and see if a specific card has a railcard attached? (Answer: not difficult at all, although it's never quite as straightforward as it seems.) |
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Post by Chris L on Dec 18, 2022 16:04:27 GMT
* Unless you only ask idiots if it can be done. ** It might be necessary to make post transaction adjustments ***. *** Although with the cost of memory what it is now, it would be possible (from the chips POV)to store a couple of CC/DB numbers for every man woman and child in the UK for less than a tenner a gate. (Obviously you couldn't actually update all the gates for a couple of quid each.) Why would Banks want it added to their cards? |
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Post by d7666 on Dec 18, 2022 16:17:06 GMT
The fact that after so many years it hasn't happened rather suggests that it isn't actually easy. Perhaps. Or that some considerable time ago, when computer hardware was a lot more expensive than it is now, someone said it wasn't feasible, and no one has ever had the nous to revisit the question since. Or it's as someone mentioned a couple of years ago in relation to driverless operation. There are those who are simply determined to find obstacles, real or imagined, to any proposed new ideas. Since we know that all current gates can read a CC/DD, check that it is extant, valid, and has sufficient credit, and can communicate that information to the the main gate mechanism, just how difficult can it be to interrogate a list of numbers and see if a specific card has a railcard attached? (Answer: not difficult at all, although it's never quite as straightforward as it seems.) Same thing w.r.t. staff electronic access cards. We all (well almost all) have a staff oyster card _ why could that not be used as our basic building entry security pass***. So simple, just a look up table. In fact, it is simpler, it is a go / no go decision. Some few sites did actually start that, one site I was on did it, but then some new further different e-card came out, and we all have to have those too; and those that were once accessed by staff oyster no longer do. I'd be pretty sure using staff oysters for staff building access fell foul to the same let's find obstacles reasoning. *** I am talking all offices here, not just operating railway sites; nor am I talking about other access like equipment rooms or track and so on and on; just the card you show the security guard or open a entry door or gate with nothing advanced beyond being staff. |
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Post by Chris M on Dec 18, 2022 19:47:35 GMT
Since we know that all current gates can read a CC/DD, check that it is extant, valid, and has sufficient credit, and can communicate that information to the the main gate mechanism, just how difficult can it be to interrogate a list of numbers and see if a specific card has a railcard attached? (Answer: not difficult at all, although it's never quite as straightforward as it seems.) I don't think that the technology ability to read the cards or lookup numbers is relevant to why bank cards being associated with railcards isn't done. I don't know, but I suspect that the issue is security and/or regulatory related - storing bank card details is after all not something any organisation should be doing lightly. I have a recollection that there was something (I can't remember what) that TfL looked into doing when contactless was first introduced, but they chose not to do it because it would have required registering as a bank and complying with all the regulations being a bank rightly entails. d7666 the reason why Oyster cards are not used for building access is definitely not technological - my normal passenger Oyster card gives me access into the computer society room at Swansea University. They have (or had last time I was there) a card reader that could read Oyster cards and it was just a case of registering the card number with my name and setting the system to allow me access - this was a 1 minute job IIRC. |
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Post by d7666 on Dec 18, 2022 21:06:43 GMT
d7666 the reason why Oyster cards are not used for building access is definitely not technological Absolutely. Agree. It worked on a couple of sites. No idea why the wheel was reinvented on this for building access. But wheel reinvention does seem to happen quite a lot ..... |
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Post by AndrewS on Dec 18, 2022 23:46:36 GMT
Chris M is right re the whole security/regulatory minefield. At the moment TfL doesn't even need to know basic personal details about Railcard holders to add the discount to an Oyster card, and when (if?) revenue checks are done they can see at the time if the Railcard and Oyster are paired. Linking discounts directly to any form of payment would involve accessing and matching details in bank and Railcard databases.
On the building access tangent I suspect building/site managers all wanted something slightly different that they could specify and run, and it would have had to deal with non-staff, visitors, different levels of security, varying levels of data storage and so on. Plus security at many buildings is outsourced and the company may have its own pet system. Then of course TfL Staff Travel would need to be involved...
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Post by class411 on Dec 19, 2022 9:41:16 GMT
* Unless you only ask idiots if it can be done. ** It might be necessary to make post transaction adjustments ***. *** Although with the cost of memory what it is now, it would be possible (from the chips POV)to store a couple of CC/DB numbers for every man woman and child in the UK for less than a tenner a gate. (Obviously you couldn't actually update all the gates for a couple of quid each.) Why would Banks want it added to their cards? That question does not make any sense in relation to what I posted. Nothing needs to be added to a card. That is the way Oyster cards work, not the CC/DB system. |
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Post by class411 on Dec 19, 2022 10:05:25 GMT
I don't think that the technology ability to read the cards or lookup numbers is relevant to why bank cards being associated with railcards isn't done. I don't know, but I suspect that the issue is security and/or regulatory related - storing bank card details is after all not something any organisation should be doing lightly. I have a recollection that there was something (I can't remember what) that TfL looked into doing when contactless was first introduced, but they chose not to do it because it would have required registering as a bank and complying with all the regulations being a bank rightly entails. Chris M is right re the whole security/regulatory minefield. At the moment TfL doesn't even need to know basic personal details about Railcard holders to add the discount to an Oyster card, and when (if?) revenue checks are done they can see at the time if the Railcard and Oyster are paired. . On the building access tangent I suspect building/site managers all wanted something slightly different that they could specify and run, and it would have had to deal with non-staff, visitors, different levels of security, varying levels of data storage and so on. Plus security at many buildings is outsourced and the company may have its own pet system. Then of course TfL Staff Travel would need to be involved... I think you are both a little confused about which regulations apply to whom. The proposed system to allow Oyster cards to be used as a general payment system came unstuck when it was realised that to do that TFL would have to be 'taking deposits' (within the meaning of the act). To do that they would have to be authorised as a bank and fulfil many onerous obligations. It was felt hat it was not worth the effort. Storing card details is NOT a problem (although you are not allowed to store the CCV). There are tens of thousands of web sites, from tiny one person operations to vast multi-nationals), that will store your CC details (again, not the CCV) if you let them. TFL would need to store less information than all these companies, and the stored information would be useless to criminals since the card dates would not need to be stored. No it wouldn't. Sorry to be so blunt, but a moments thought should reveal that that is not the case. The gate would need to access a very simple TFL database that recorded card numbers together with flags for railcard types and an expiry date. No bank or railcard database would need to be accessed. The current half baked system where one payment method won't allow one discount and one won't allow another (so you cannot get all the discounts to which you are entitled), is a mess and TFL should be sorting it out. No one has yet provided a sensible reason, technological or regulatory, why they can't. |
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