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Post by downdc on Sept 18, 2022 12:50:23 GMT
Hi all
A recent thread of curiosity has led me to wonder, what is the extent of route knowledge required for drivers on/at the various LO routes/depots?
When I noticed last weekend that engineering works meant trains were running in service via Primrose Hill, I wondered about the reliability of the points on those junctions which don’t get used that much, vs say those at Harrow On The Hill, which I have learnt through using this forum are used as little as possible due to the high probability of failure. The reasons for that are obviously myriad but the initial question is somewhat irrelevant; after having the thought, it quickly occurred to me that both DC/NLL junctions at Camden do see regular use for ECS movements. My curiosity led me to RTT to have a little look at the movements on a weekday, and the search results for LO via Primrose Hill surprised me, with positioning movements between locations further and more varied than I expected, such as the Kilburn Up and Down goods loop, Willesden Railnet Reception, and York Way North Junction. As these examples touch the ECML and in a few cases require a fair amount of distance on the WCML, I wonder, what must the LO drivers on these routes know?
Any insight always appreciated
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Post by zbang on Sept 18, 2022 18:14:40 GMT
NLL - North London Line? LO - London Overground? RTT - Round Trip Time? ECS - Enormous Control System? ECML - Eastern Chocolate Manufacturing Line? Too many TLAs (Three Letter Acronyms), please use fewer  . |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Sept 18, 2022 18:28:48 GMT
NLL - North London Line? LO - London Overground? RTT - Round Trip Time? ECS - Enormous Control System? ECML - Eastern Chocolate Manufacturing Line? NLL - North London Line LO - London Overground RTT - Real Time TrainsECS - Empty coaching stock ECML - East Coast Main Line |
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Post by downdc on Sept 19, 2022 7:14:28 GMT
NLL - North London Line? LO - London Overground? RTT - Round Trip Time? ECS - Enormous Control System? ECML - Eastern Chocolate Manufacturing Line? Too many TLAs (Three Letter Acronyms), please use fewer . Is it permissible in this instance to reply with ‘OK’ ?! Or is that missing the point… As my original question has fallen by the wayside perhaps it’s more worthwhile investigating the different Chocolate Manufacturing Lines in more detail. No idea without checking if it’s still the case but back in the day, Rowntrees was based in York; various extended family members used to bring us the factory second items including 3-finger Kit Kats etc. So, ECML as Eastern Chocolate Manufacturing Line works. As for the WCML, yes that is also Western Chocolate Manufacturing Line. This designation is based on the presence of the McVities factory on the southwestern side of the formation, at Harlesden. I think the factory may even have sidings connected to the relief lines. It is emblazoned with the slogan ‘You have to go a long, long way to find a better biscuit’. This is presumably making reference to another location along the Western Chocolate Manufacturing Line, but it is not specified, nor the distance in miles and chains. Is Kendal also along this line? If so, some mixed traffic potential |
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Post by MoreToJack on Sept 19, 2022 9:36:14 GMT
Is it permissible in this instance to reply with ‘OK’ ?! Or is that missing the point… |
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Post by downdc on Sept 19, 2022 9:58:51 GMT
If there was any topic to return to, that would be my definite preference! And noted re the abbreviations, I guess a couple aren’t necessarily that widespread although I think it’s fair to say most of what I used are well known, certainly in the context of this forum…
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Post by dazz285 on Sept 19, 2022 12:18:47 GMT
Watford Depot... DC, Nll & Wll
Willesden Depot... DC, Nll, Wll & Gobs
Euston Depot... DC, Nll, Wll & Gobs
Stratford... Nll,Wll, Gobs & Romfords
NXG Depot... Ell
ECS is a whole different kettle of fish for each depot..
Mod edit [Antharro]: Quote removed.
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Post by Chris M on Sept 19, 2022 12:21:55 GMT
DC = Watford DC line (Euston to Watford Junction)
WLL = West London Line (Willesden Junction to Clapham Junction)
Gobs = GOBLin = Gospel Oak to Barking (Riverside) Line
ELL - East London Line (Highbury & Islington via Surrey Quays to West Croydon/New Cross/Crystal Palace/Clapham Junction)
NXG = New Cross Gate
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Post by tut on Sept 19, 2022 14:58:14 GMT
If you're interested in the answer to your original query-prompting query.
On the main line railways, the big four companies actually used to have rules in their rule books which required signallers to move points that are not frequently used to check they work and also keep them working. For example, from the 1933 LMS Rule Book:
Today there is no such rule, but as far as some people in ops are concerned, if the equipment is booked in order then it is there to be used. And indeed not working points, particularly mechanical points, will tend to result in them seizing up and becoming a complete and utter pig to pull, further deterring people from using them. However, plenty of others are reluctant to use little-used points if they can possibly avoid it, because you can end up locking up an area if you can't get the points back and you end up looking a right lemon. Once bitten, twice shy on that one I think. It did happen at Newland East once, they reversed the main to main crossover and they couldn't get it back (one wonders if a good kick was attempted), but that took out the Malvern Line! So when that crossover was in, many signallers didn't like using it. But that wouldn't stop the planners from booking engineers trains to start back from Newland East and as far as planners generally are concerned, so far as I can see, if the infrastructure is there, they are prepared to make use of it.
By way of an entertaining example, I was at Droitwich Spa at the weekend discussing various aspects of the layout and the Local Ops Manager said "any other time, I'd let you try it, but this weekend, what with the death of the Queen, there are loads of managers at the West Mids Signalling Centre on the lookout for every small delay, so just for this weekend, I'm not gonna move anything I don't need to". We did still have a practise on 62 points, which if anyone's interested are bloody heavy.
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Post by rincew1nd on Sept 19, 2022 16:28:57 GMT
ECS is a whole different kettle of fish for each depot. A kettle that I'd love to see poured. (Ok, that's stretching the metaphor, but could you perhaps give some examples?) |
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Post by downdc on Sept 19, 2022 19:46:49 GMT
A kettle that I'd love to see poured. Seconded! Thanks Dazz and Tut for your responses; Dazz you answered Overground-related queries for me during my first forays on here more than a decade ago, I wasn’t sure if you were still active. Like rincew1nd, I am especially interested in the ECS kettle of fish you mention, because the extent of running away from usual service routes is what piqued my curiosity in the first place. Having read in other threads about the very specific nature of exactly which routes drivers do or don’t sign, I was quite surprised by say running from Primrose Hill to Kilburn goods loop, or Willesden railnet, as even though these aren’t huge distances, it still seems like loads and loads more to learn, especially in complex areas like Willesden etc. I am aware that despite the branding etc, London Overground remains part of the national rail network and as such also remains so in a procedural sense; the apparent extent of route knowledge seems somewhat old-fashioned to me, but in a good way! We are all after all forever lamenting the loss of flexibility etc which comes with various more contemporary practices Mod edit [Antharro]: Quote partially removed. |
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Post by stapler on Sept 19, 2022 20:22:37 GMT
Nobody has mentioned the Lea Valley Lines (Chingford-Cambridge-Enfield T etc).
What other routes apart from to/from depot) must these drivers know?
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Post by sunnyday on Sept 20, 2022 8:22:04 GMT
There is a page on Rail Forums which lists each Train Operating Company (TOC) and the route that each depot covers. railforums.co.uk/threads/different-driver-depot-route-and-traction-cards.205085/Specific to London Overground:- Chingford Traction: 710 Routes: London Liverpool Street - Chingford/Enfield Town/Cheshunt (via Southbury) Liverpool St - Seven Kings for Ilford CS Euston Traction: 378,710 Routes: London Euston - Watford Junction via DC lines Richmond - Willesden Junction - Stratford Willesden Junction - Clapham Junction Gospel Oak - Barking New Cross Gate Traction: 378 Routes: Highbury & Islington - Clapham Junction/West Croydon/Crystal Palace/Battersea Park/New Cross Night Link: Kensington Olympia to New Cross Gate CSD via Longhedge Junction - 10 car unit swaps Stratford Traction: 378,710 Routes: Richmond - Willesden Junction - Stratford Willesden Junction - Clapham Junction Gospel Oak - Barking Romford - Upminster Romford - Ilford depot Watford Junction Traction: 378,710 Routes: London Euston - Watford Junction via DC lines Richmond - Willesden Junction - Stratford Willesden Junction - Clapham Junction Willesden Junction Traction: 378,710 Routes: London Euston - Watford Junction via DC lines (link dependant) Richmond - Willesden Junction - Stratford Willesden Junction - Clapham Junction Gospel Oak - Barking |
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Post by d7666 on Sept 20, 2022 11:16:22 GMT
Specific to London Overground:- Chingford Traction: 710 Routes: London Liverpool Street - Chingford/ Enfield Town/Cheshunt ( via Southbury) Liverpool St - Seven Kings for Ilford CS And : Nobody has mentioned the Lea Valley Lines (Chingford-Cambridge-Enfield T etc). What other routes apart from to/from depot) must these drivers know? Not sure what you are asking there, but if you mean LO, then the answer is LO do not operate Lea Valley if you mean normal scheduled public timetabled services; all 'normal' trains on the Lea Valley route are Greater Anglia. But, as always with these things there is one exception to prove the rule the early morning service 2U00 Saturdays only that routes via Clapton and then two pieces of rare track. The best place to find this is in PSUL (Passenger train Services over Unusual Lines) here : www.branchline.uk/PSULintro.phpfollow the tabs and it will download you a PDF. But to quote from it, and acknowledge it, I'm sure Richard Maund won't mind : QUOTE Seven Sisters Junction - South Tottenham West Junction and South Tottenham East Junction - Tottenham South Junction (014,017) LB01A Saturdays:2U00 0530 Liverpool Street - Enfield Town
[note: train susceptible to being diverted via Stoke Newington or cancelled on week-by-week basis] UNQUOTE I have yet to do this train; on the (fortunately) exceedingly rare occasions when I have to work nights I have managed to get away to Liverpool Street for this or equivalents trains three times now only to find it is diverted to the Stoke Newington route. I believe we must have an Enfield Town commuter in the forum somewhere who perhaps can comment ? Anyway, it is advisable to regularly check PSUL as with anything working like this, such workings can change. I /assume/ 2U00 is Chingford crewed, and /guess/ it goes this way for route knowledge retention purposes (I don't think it is a rusty rail moves over the 2 links as other trains use them). |
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Post by downdc on Sept 20, 2022 15:44:55 GMT
Sunnyday, many thanks for the link and the copied information. It would seem however that the information is not comprehensive, as the initial impetus for me to ask this question was routing along the WCML etc, which is not mentioned at all here, whereas it does mention for instance Liverpool Street - Seven Kings for Chingford drivers. The ECS moves I have seen on Realtime trains quite clearly and regularly encompass more than just the Overground service routes, which are all that appear to be listed for Watford/Willesden/Euston drivers
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Post by dazz285 on Sept 20, 2022 18:13:11 GMT
A kettle that I'd love to see poured. C-Sidings, Stonebridge Park area... Willesden only New Lines..Connection from Willesden Low Level to High level.. All except NXG Main Line from Euston to Wembley.. Willesden & Euston High-Level Goods Line, Past McVities factory... Willesden East Ham Depot..Stratford... Primrose Hill line from South Hampstead to Camden...all except NXG Mod edit [Antharro]: Quote partially removed. |
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Post by jimbo on Sept 20, 2022 20:36:56 GMT
But, as always with these things there is one exception to prove the rule the early morning service 2U00 Saturdays only that routes via Clapton and then two pieces of rare track. ..... I've never understood how a single weekly booked working can maintain crews' route knowledge. If you work around the roster you could be away that week sick, on leave, training, etc, or even rostered off day. Some staff avoid early duties, etc. If you are there, the trip may be cancelled due to various operating problems. And it can be a long time before that working comes around again on the roster. Mod edit [Antharro]: Quote partially removed. |
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Post by d7666 on Sept 20, 2022 22:15:33 GMT
I've never understood how a single weekly booked working can maintain crews' route knowledge. In reality nor do I fully. Hence my emphasis on /guess/. Especially with the 6 mo rule on main lines - and there must surely be more than 26 drivers at Chingford which is all you could do at maximum in 6 mo before adding the points you rightly raise. But then again, I am but a layman in these matters. It may not be route retention, but, if not, how do they actually retain it at all just to cover 2u00 ? At back of mind, are those two curves statutory requirements to retain a passenger service ? In which case maybe there are other LO empties moves over it, and 2u00 would be an ECS but advertised SO to meet the legal nicities; not got the time now to fiddle with RTT and check. Mod edit [Antharro]: Quote partially removed. |
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Post by downdc on Sept 21, 2022 15:20:49 GMT
Many thanks again Dazz. I guess reversal at points such as the North London Incline or say the Graham Road Curve are considered to be a part of the Richmond-Stratford route
Mod edit [Antharro]: Quote removed.
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Post by d7666 on Sept 21, 2022 15:38:23 GMT
At back of mind, are those two curves statutory requirements to retain a passenger service ? In which case maybe there are other LO empties moves over it, and 2u00 would be an ECS but advertised SO to meet the legal nicities; not got the time now to fiddle with RTT and check. I did find some time to look in RTT - and so far can not find ANY other LO train that uses that route, ECS or anything. Which makes it odder to try and understand how the whole train crew depot does retain route knowledge on it. |
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Post by dazz285 on Sept 23, 2022 16:26:44 GMT
Many thanks again Dazz. I guess reversal at points such as the North London Incline or say the Graham Road Curve are considered to be a part of the Richmond-Stratford route Yes Mod edit [Antharro]: Quote removed. |
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Post by greatkingrat on Sept 23, 2022 17:44:47 GMT
I did find some time to look in RTT - and so far can not find ANY other LO train that uses that route, ECS or anything. There are two ECS trains Mon-Fri - 5U01 0514 Liverpool Street - Enfield Town 0542 and 5U03 0533 Liverpool Street - Enfield Town 0604. So that is a total of 11 trains a week. Mod edit [Antharro]: Quote partially removed. |
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Post by d7666 on Sept 23, 2022 18:12:26 GMT
There are two ECS trains Mon-Fri - 5U01 0514 Liverpool Street - Enfield Town 0542 and 5U03 0533 Liverpool Street - Enfield Town 0604. So that is a total of 11 trains a week. Interesting. Thanks. Now you have identified the trains, I find them, by headcode. But before, I had done a different search. I wonder if I previously searched on some days when those two were not running because of engineering work or something ? Mod edit [Antharro]: Quote partially removed. |
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Post by rozay21 on Oct 11, 2022 21:55:39 GMT
A recent thread of curiosity has led me to wonder, what is the extent of route knowledge required for drivers on/at the various LO routes/depots? Willesden Drivers sign the Slow lines on the WCML from primrose tunnel up to Sudbury Junction for ECS movements mainly to get the stabling sidings at Wembley and getting to Willesden TMD. Willesden drivers sign from Mitre Bridge Junction to join the Relief lines. This is also ECS mainly from Clapham to Wembley Yard sidings. So many diversions around the Harlesden junction area. So from Camden Road you can be sent down primrose and the slow lines coming from Stratford. Some Willesden drivers in the Night link and DC Link also do sign the DC line. Mod edit [Antharro]: Quote partially removed. |
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Post by antharro on Oct 12, 2022 5:08:52 GMT
I've just spent some time tidying up this thread and removing a lot of unnecessary quotes. I have left a note on each post I've edited. Please be selective about the part of a post you wish to quote rather than the whole post verbatim, particularly if you are replying to the previous post in the thread.
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Post by downdc on Oct 12, 2022 16:49:14 GMT
Many thanks for that Rozay21; also, welcome! As you say, there is a great deal of complexity in the Willesden/Harlesden/Wembley areas, as well as a number of permutations for the various ECS routings. I don’t know much at all on the subject of route knowledge in general, but I have to say that what I had picked up so far from forums etc gave me the impression that it would be somewhat more restricted than in this particular instance
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