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Post by diffusion on Sept 11, 2022 17:49:26 GMT
<<Thread moved from Station-Related Matters - goldenarrow>>
I occasionally watch the rail cam for Epping station.
I’ve noticed that trains arrive on the right sided platform as you look towards Ongar even though sometimes the left platform is empty.
I also see that there is a crossover to allow trains to pull into the right platform from the eastbound track but never see trains arrive on the westbound and cross over so they pull into the left platform.
trains leaving always leave on the westbound track so transfer across if they leave the technically eastbound platform.
just curious on these movements.
Train destination seems to be for West Ruislip from Epping. And trains from Newbury Park go to Ealing Broadway. Are there set patterns?
Also the other evening a lot of late night trains were terminating at Loughton from Epping.
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towerman
My status is now now widower
Posts: 2,968
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Post by towerman on Sept 11, 2022 20:58:38 GMT
Usual service pattern is Epping-West Ruislip off peak & weekends,Late at night the last westbound for Ruislip is around 11:15pm,anything after that will be Loughton or Woodford stablers.
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Post by scheduler on Sept 12, 2022 19:35:36 GMT
At Epping there is a preference for one of the platforms over the other as that is the side where the entrance/exit is, so if that platform is empty, trains will always go there. The second platform is only used in the peak when 2 trains are at Epping at the same time.
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DWS
every second count's
Posts: 2,487
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Post by DWS on Sept 12, 2022 19:51:01 GMT
If you look in the working timetable you will find trains use both platforms at Epping not just in the peak hours.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 13, 2022 6:13:44 GMT
The "right platform" is Platform 1, the "left platform" is Platform 2
I’ve noticed that trains arrive on the right sided platform as you look towards Ongar even though sometimes the left platform is empty.
Mostly trains will go into Platform 2 as that is the side for the buses, car park and station staff accommodation. If a train is running late with a train less than 4-5 minutes behind it can be switched to Platform 1 so that the train behind isn't held outside the station waiting for it to come back over the crossover from Platform 2 (or it isn't delayed waiting for the train behind to go over the crossover to Platform 1,
I also see that there is a crossover to allow trains to pull into the right platform from the eastbound track but never see trains arrive on the westbound and cross over so they pull into the left platform.
The only situation where you'd see a train "arrive on the westbound" was if a train had departed the station and for some bizarre reason had to return to the platform. For this move the Line Controller would have to authorise a wrong direction move over the points with the points "Scotched and clipped" by a Customer Service Manager/Duty Response Manager. The move would be carried out in Restricted Manual at a max speed of 15kph and in my 19 years as a TOp on the Central Line I can't recall a single instance of this move being carried out
trains leaving always leave on the westbound track so transfer across if they leave the technically eastbound platform.
As Epping is the terminus station there isn't an "eastbound" platform, both are "westbound"
Train destination seems to be for West Ruislip from Epping. And trains from Newbury Park go to Ealing Broadway. Are there set patterns?
Epping trains go to West Ruislip, Ealing Broadway, Northolt, White City or North Acton, the same with Newbury Park trains. You'd need to look at Working Timetable 70 (available on the TfL website) for details
Also the other evening a lot of late night trains were terminating at Loughton from Epping.
If there's been an incident Epping trains are "short tripped" at Loughton and Debden in order to recover the service. The Line Controller will check how late each train is running, how many passengers it has onboard then select which trains "short trip" and which ones carry on to Epping
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Post by stapler on Sept 13, 2022 7:07:59 GMT
On the rare-ish occasions I go to Epping, generally in the evening peak, the train always seems to go into no 1 platform, necessitating the trek over the bridge!
What is the procedure nowadays for a mobility-impaired passenger to exit p.1 to the street on the eastward? Or is the gate now open (cf the London-end exit at Buckhurst Hill)?
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Post by brigham on Sept 13, 2022 7:50:54 GMT
trains leaving always leave on the westbound track so transfer across if they leave the technically eastbound platform.
As Epping is the terminus station there isn't an "eastbound" platform, both are "westbound" It's my opinion that the original poster (diffusion) is fully aware of this, and has inserted the word 'technically' to indicate this fact. Perhaps 'ostensibly', 'former' or 'one-time' might have been preferable. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 13, 2022 7:53:06 GMT
I work late shifts and from my own observation it would appear that the gate on Platform 1 is left open until the end of the evening peak. Not sure about weekends, to be honest I only notice it is open when I happen to end up on platform 1 instead of Platform 2
There is a Help Point next to the gate so passengers can summon assistance if its locked
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Post by xtmw on Sept 13, 2022 10:26:48 GMT
As a regular user of Epping, the trains normally go into platform 2. They only go into platform 1 if platform 2 is occupied.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 13, 2022 11:35:35 GMT
As a regular user of Epping, the trains normally go into platform 2. They only go into platform 1 if platform 2 is occupied. As someone who has worked as a TOp on the Central Line for 19 years I can confirm they also use Platform 1 if a train is running late to avoid having to hold the train behind Occasionally you have one train departing Platform 1 while another arrives on Platform 2 or passing each other just outside the station which obviously you couldn't do if the trains were the other way around |
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Post by xtmw on Sept 13, 2022 13:26:20 GMT
As a regular user of Epping, the trains normally go into platform 2. They only go into platform 1 if platform 2 is occupied. As someone who has worked as a TOp on the Central Line for 19 years I can confirm they also use Platform 1 if a train is running late to avoid having to hold the train behind Occasionally you have one train departing Platform 1 while another arrives on Platform 2 or passing each other just outside the station which obviously you couldn't do if the trains were the other way around Sorry didn't see your post! I remember one time, I was held outside for Epping for 15 minutes  ... Train went flying past us and we were off into Epping! Also, I've noticed it isn't actually rare to be held outside Epping |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 14, 2022 15:00:01 GMT
As someone who has worked as a TOp on the Central Line for 19 years I can confirm they also use Platform 1 if a train is running late to avoid having to hold the train behind Occasionally you have one train departing Platform 1 while another arrives on Platform 2 or passing each other just outside the station which obviously you couldn't do if the trains were the other way around Sorry didn't see your post! I remember one time, I was held outside for Epping for 15 minutes ... Train went flying past us and we were off into Epping! Also, I've noticed it isn't actually rare to be held outside Epping No, its not rare. Working Timetable 70 is without doubt the worst timetable we have had in the last 19 years. It's not just Epping either, you get held outside Hainault, Ealing Broadway and West Ruislip. |
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DWS
every second count's
Posts: 2,487
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Post by DWS on Sept 14, 2022 15:44:34 GMT
Are there any plans to replace Working Time Table No 70 this year or early next year.
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Post by stapler on Sept 14, 2022 17:14:45 GMT
Changing a timetable is a really involved job. I would doubt it!
t/ops -- has stepping back at Loughton worked?
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 14, 2022 18:22:54 GMT
Changing a timetable is a really involved job. I would doubt it! t/ops -- has stepping back at Loughton worked? The only difference I've noticed is that we have to sit around for 10 minutes or thereabouts waiting for a train. Not much fun in winter The trains still sit in the middle for 4 minutes or more so its not saving any time and we could just as easily change ends like we used to |
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Post by programmes1 on Sept 14, 2022 18:46:34 GMT
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Post by smiffy on Sept 15, 2022 14:35:26 GMT
I use Epping pretty much every day, sometimes it seems the trains go into platform 1 (non-exit side) for no reason at all, even if Platform 2 is empty. It's not too uncommon. It seems to happen most when there's been a delay, meaning a full platform and train full of people all have to squeeze across that tiny footbridge to get out the station or get on the train. After reading this thread I realise it's probably to prevent congestion if there's a train not far behind the first, but sometimes it really seems like it's for no reason, where a full train will pull into an empty Epping station on platform 1 only to be immediately followed by an almost empty one behind it that goes to platform 2. They both end up sitting around for 5-10 minutes, what's the point in this? I've had it a fair few times where a train arrives at platform 2 before you've even made it across the footbridge on your way out from platform 1, which seems counter-intuitive. The platform full of people waiting start to head over the footbridge against the crowd of people that just got off the train and it just congests the whole station and makes the whole process twice as long for both sides.
If you're on a train arriving at Epping, you can tell which platform you'll be pulling in to based on the speed of the train. If you head into Epping full-speed, you're heading to Platform 2. If it slows down drastically before the approach, it's platform 1. Sometimes trains come to a stop before the station of course, but they'll still be slower than normal once moving again if they're heading to platform 1.
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Post by notverydeep on Sept 16, 2022 7:42:08 GMT
I use Epping pretty much every day, sometimes it seems the trains go into platform 1 (non-exit side) for no reason at all, even if Platform 2 is empty. It's not too uncommon. It seems to happen most when there's been a delay, meaning a full platform and train full of people all have to squeeze across that tiny footbridge to get out the station or get on the train. Trains will go to their timetabled platform if available as can be seen in the Working Timetable here, normally this would be alternating platforms, with overlapping layovers - so mostly you would expect a train to be present in the other platform when you arrive (which will then depart first). With delays or gaps in the service, the other train may have already left or be missing, but the control system will still select the timetabled platform - it is this situation that will lead to trains arriving into platform 1 while platform 2 is empty (it is a programmed choice rather than an immediate concious choice on the part of the signaller). The system will however divert trains to the other platform if they arrive and the timetabled platform if they arrive with the other unoccupied and the route out of the timetabled platform has not yet been called... It's not just Epping either, you get held outside Hainault, Ealing Broadway and West Ruislip. Being held outside of a terminus is often by design, it is in effect a method of increasing the layover and hence recovery time, where this cannot be done in the platforms as they are scheduled to be fully occupied. It is ususally the least worst location, as the train arriving will be at its least loaded (that is most people alight before the train reaches the terminus). It is a trade off however, as at busy times it is still imposing a longer journey time on passengers travelling to the terminus (which may be percived as a delay even if it isn't). This can be mitigated by placing additional time in the first run time of the trip after the terminus instead when the trains arriving at the terminus are busier than those departing... |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 16, 2022 10:56:17 GMT
I've lost count of the number of times I've been held outside a terminus station with an empty platform, called up the signaller after two minutes to inform them I was being held to be told that the train ahead of me had arrived late and the signal program prioritises departures. I've then had to wait for a train - or sometimes at Hainault two trains - to depart before I got the signal into the empty platform by which time my train is not only late arriving but also already late for its timetabled departure.
This was not a common occurrence until WTT 69 and it has only got worse with WTT 70, if it is "by design" then its seriously flawed. Wood Lane's ineptness doesn't help, they also seem to have deteriorated over the last 5 years
Only 5 years, 3 months and 23 days to retirement...
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Post by spsmiler on Sept 16, 2022 11:06:00 GMT
I've lost count of the number of times I've been held outside a terminus station with an empty platform, called up the signaller after two minutes to inform them I was being held and been told that the train ahead of me had arrived late and the signal program prioritises departures. I've then had to wait for a train - or sometimes at Hainault two trains - to depart before I got the signal into the empty platform by which time my train is not only late arriving but also already late for its timetabled departure. This was not a common occurrence until WTT 69 and it has only got worse with WTT 70, if it is "by design" then its seriously flawed I'll leave the choice of words that could be used by passengers when on trains waiting to enter a station - only to find several empty platforms - to your imagination. Passenger sentiments are different when they can see that a train had to leave the station before the train they were on can arrive at the platform. This is often then case at Stratford, London Overground. |
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Post by notverydeep on Sept 16, 2022 11:19:37 GMT
I've lost count of the number of times I've been held outside a terminus station with an empty platform, called up the signaller after two minutes to inform them I was being held and been told that the train ahead of me had arrived late and the signal program prioritises departures. I've then had to wait for a train - or sometimes at Hainault two trains - to depart before I got the signal into the empty platform by which time my train is not only late arriving but also already late for its timetabled departure. This was not a common occurrence until WTT 69 and it has only got worse with WTT 70, if it is "by design" then its seriously flawed There are two issues. The timetable design element is simply planning for your train to arrive at the protecting signal prior to the terminus earlier than the planned move into the terminus platform, but this would be only to allow recovery time, if you were late, this the design intent would for the extra time to be used as recovery and for your train would reach the platform as soon as the route to it became available... The timetable doesn't contain any direction about how to prioritise conflicting moves once trains are running late. Such prioritisation will be determined by the control system logic, in most cases the control mode selected by the controller, which will determine priority. The modes available vary by system but will likely be one of 'no out of turn / timetable order', or 'first come first served' (perhaps with varying degrees of 'hold to time'). Use of the no out of turn mode would prioritise a conflicting move timetabled to take place earlier than your scheduled arrival (which probably accounts for your experience), where first come first served mode would allow your train to reach the unoccupied platform to maintain your scheduled arrival time if the conflicting departure isn't ready. That being said, prioirtising departures over arrivals from termini is normal across the industry and probably the world's metros. This is for the simple reason that the departure will in turn have many other conflicting moves to make and many more passengers to move across the trip. An arrival at the terminus is by definition only going to affect the last remaining passengers and will be entering a layover with some recovery available anyway. Ultimately, it is a service control decision rather than a timetabling one... |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 16, 2022 14:28:34 GMT
Or to put it another way, f..k the punters, f..k the drivers, who cares if they're late
Why am I not surprised
Cannot wait to retire
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Post by zbang on Sept 16, 2022 15:05:06 GMT
(which may be percived as a delay even if it isn't). It most certainly is a delay in the minds of the travelers and I don't think any explanation will shift that. Anything that holds a train from proceeding is a delay, planned or not; may not count as one in some circumstances, but to the people on the train "We're delayed." |
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Post by notverydeep on Sept 16, 2022 15:31:21 GMT
(which may be percived as a delay even if it isn't). It most certainly is a delay in the minds of the travelers and I don't think any explanation will shift that. Anything that holds a train from proceeding is a delay, planned or not; may not count as one in some circumstances, but to the people on the train "We're delayed." It is entirely understandable that it will frustrate regular users of terminus stations, but having sufficient recovery will help the reliability of the whole line and it has to be somewhere. If it was limited to the available platform capacity, it would be a smaller proportion of the round trip and delays would continue to propogate for longer, delaying more passengers in the end. And the same passengers benefit when it is their turn to be on the departing train (as well as all those yet to board). It would be possible to put recovery time in small increments on each station to station link, but with this approach, the train will wait a bit longer at each station, consuming the available recovery as it goes, so is no good for delays later in the trip. Instead by including it in the link approaching to the terminus, it can mitigate short hold-ups where ever they have occurred in the trip up to that point. Or to put it another way, f..k the punters, f..k the drivers, who cares if they're late Why am I not surprised Cannot wait to retire Specifying and compiling a railway timetable requires trade offs at every turn, but it is never done in the spirit of making colleagues' (or passengers) lives less pleasant. If there were less run time, there would be less recovery, then you would be late more often and have your break reduced and / or finish time exceeded more often. Don't forget, on your next trip of the same duty - you are the departing driver and your passengers are not being held up. Stepping back at Loughton is done for a similar reason: a four minute layover is too short (it is the minimum allowable for changing ends) and would have no recovery with the same driver staying with the train. With stepping back the train can re-start as soon as the arriving driver shutting down / relieving driver opening up of each cab is complete and the rest of the four minutes is recovery. |
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Post by zbang on Sept 16, 2022 16:09:23 GMT
I don't think anyone (well, maybe?) is arguing that occasionally trains need to be held in place for a hopefully-short period; that's still a "delay" to the passenger.
There's also merit to the argument that holding a train outside an empty platform, for whatever reason, is a delay. And if I see my bus leaving whilst we're held out, nothing is going to convince me that there was a good reason (esp if the next bus is in half an hour or more).
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Post by notverydeep on Sept 16, 2022 17:31:47 GMT
There's also merit to the argument that holding a train outside an empty platform, for whatever reason, is a delay. And if I see my bus leaving whilst we're held out, nothing is going to convince me that there was a good reason (esp if the next bus is in half an hour or more). As someone who lives in a town with a National Rail station where the platforms are frequently occupied by terminating trains which are prone to late running, I do know the feeling - I do experience the situation, though thankfully my home is within walking distance. As a planner of other train services however, my job is to come up with services that represent the "greatest good for the greatest number" within the available resources and it will inevitably be a compromise with many trade offs (e.g. frequency and run time vs reliability). It is a task that inevitably does include making choices that are worse for a smaller number of people, to make things better for a larger number of people... |
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Post by stapler on Sept 17, 2022 14:51:44 GMT
Stepping back at Loughton is done for a similar reason: a four minute layover is too short (it is the minimum allowable for changing ends) and would have no recovery with the same driver staying with the train. With stepping back the train can re-start as soon as the arriving driver shutting down / relieving driver opening up of each cab is complete and the rest of the four minutes is recovery. I think this has been effective in reducing delays outside Loughton, despite the greatly increased numbers of Loughton terminators in WTT70. I'm surprised, however, that the creature comforts of the drivers are not better catered for. After all, the design of Loughton station in 1935-40 was specifically to allow for EMU terminators on plats 1 and 4, with either an half-length electric or steam shuttle from 2&3 to the rural fastnesses. |
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Post by zbang on Sept 17, 2022 16:09:19 GMT
As a planner of other train services however, my job is to come up with services that represent the "greatest good for the greatest number" within the available resources and it will inevitably be a compromise with many trade offs (e.g. frequency and run time vs reliability). It is a task that inevitably does include making choices that are worse for a smaller number of people, to make things better for a larger number of people... Unfortunately, I think you're still missing the point-
Holding a train outside a station when there is an empty platform which looks like it can take it then looks like an unnecessary delay to the traveler, even if the train is early! Nothing to do with regulation of service, everything to do with perception.
A bit of this goes back to the concept of making frequent passenger announcements when things aren't moving, although my recent experiences suggest some t/ops no longer bother.
(also see previous posts by aslefshrugged and spsmiler)
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Post by notverydeep on Sept 17, 2022 20:25:31 GMT
Unfortunately, I think you're still missing the point-
Holding a train outside a station when there is an empty platform which looks like it can take it then looks like an unnecessary delay to the traveler, even if the train is early! Nothing to do with regulation of service, everything to do with perception.
I do get this and I acknowledged it in my first post to this thread (08:42 on 16 September), "It is a trade off however, as at busy times it is still imposing a longer journey time on passengers travelling to the terminus ( which may be percived as a delay even if it isn't)." Despite this perception being fairly inevitable, the practice of adding extra recovery time / layover on the approach to termini is ubiquitous, across the Underground, the UK National Rail networks and similar Metro and state railway operations across the globe... |
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Post by stapler on Sept 20, 2022 10:39:44 GMT
A bit of this goes back to the concept of making frequent passenger announcements when things aren't moving, although my recent experiences suggest some t/ops no longer bother.
They seem less frequent than before lockdown. They are not helpful when they say "We are being held at a red signal. We should be on the move shortly" even at Leytonstone wb when the driver can clearly see s/he is just waiting for a platform. Accurate, but not informative... |
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... Train went flying past us and we were off into Epping! Also, I've noticed it isn't actually rare to be held outside Epping
