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Post by joeltancl on Jul 24, 2022 13:33:23 GMT
Dear members
What was the practice relating to passenger alarms on the Victoria line when the line first opened or shortly after (when all the other lines still had Guards and it was the only one using one-man operation)?
I read that back in those days, on a crew operated train, using the passenger alarm would cause the train to stop.
Being the first line to have one person operation, was the practice relating to passenger alarms similar, or different, to current practice on OPO trains?
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Jul 24, 2022 15:16:41 GMT
As far as I know the rules for the Victoria Line were the same.ATO would shut down the cab and reset the alarm.Rules changed once all lines were OPO & passenger alarms were electrical rather than part of the Westinghouse brake.Now alarms have talk back facility it’s continue to next station then investigating.
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Post by joeltancl on Jul 24, 2022 15:51:25 GMT
Interesting, it seems LT simply applied the then-prevailing practice with necessary modifications for one man operation and automatic train operation ... with more radical changes coming later on ...
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Post by Chris L on Jul 24, 2022 16:50:39 GMT
Interesting, it seems LT simply applied the then-prevailing practice with necessary modifications for one man operation and automatic train operation ... with more radical changes coming later on ... There were push buttons along the platform walls that could stop the train in an emergency. |
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Post by joeltancl on Jul 24, 2022 17:10:12 GMT
Interesting, it seems LT simply applied the then-prevailing practice with necessary modifications for one man operation and automatic train operation ... with more radical changes coming later on ... There were push buttons along the platform walls that could stop the train in an emergency. If this was exclusive to the Victoria line back then, I can see why this was needed... there was no guard present, who could simply pull down/rotate the emergency handle if he saw something dangerous unfolding while the train was leaving the platform and an emergency stop was needed... |
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Post by seaeagle on Jul 24, 2022 19:36:49 GMT
Interesting, it seems LT simply applied the then-prevailing practice with necessary modifications for one man operation and automatic train operation ... with more radical changes coming later on ... There were push buttons along the platform walls that could stop the train in an emergency. The push buttons on the platforms would not stop the train, they would just cause the train to lose power, they could still coast |
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Jul 24, 2022 20:34:52 GMT
I was under the impression that the platform button killed the codes making the train emergency brake.
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Post by seaeagle on Jul 24, 2022 21:21:58 GMT
I was under the impression that the platform button killed the codes making the train emergency brake. There was a lot of people that thought that! True it would kill a 420 or 270 code, however if you were coming into a platform on a 180 code, (which was most of the time when coming into a platform), you could coast. Obviously when leaving a platform you'd have a 420 code, and if the platform plunger was pressed the train would stop in a heap. God that's bringing some memories back, haven't worked a 67 stock for more years than I care to remember! lol |
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Post by jimbo on Jul 25, 2022 4:48:28 GMT
Of course, when the train entered a platform, it was no different to other lines, with the 'driver' watching ahead, and able to stop the train with an emergency brake. The difference was on departure, with no guard to watch a safe departure, and the driver without cab video feed as now.
I think there were three emergency stop plungers provided at even spacing along the platform wall. They were quite small and indistinct, accompanied by a notice promising to stop a departing train, with penalty for misuse. Few people would have noticed them, and in the event of an incident it was unlikely that a passenger would have had time to realise what was happening and locate such a switch before the train had left the platform completely. I don't know if they ever saved a life. Another innovation of the Victoria Line was the station control rooms at ticket hall level. They were also provided with such a plunger for each platform together with video screens to monitor for trouble.
Were such plungers installed with the Central Line conversion using a development of the Victoria Line system? They were provided for the Jubilee Line conversion, but dropped from the Northern Line installation soon after! Are they still in use on the Jubilee Line? Were they provided on the Victoria Line with its current signalling system?
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Post by Chris M on Jul 25, 2022 6:41:34 GMT
I believe the plungers were installed for the Jubilee line but never commissioned and later removed without ever being used.
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Post by joeltancl on Jul 25, 2022 6:55:27 GMT
Of course, when the train entered a platform, it was no different to other lines, with the 'driver' watching ahead, and able to stop the train with an emergency brake. The difference was on departure, with no guard to watch a safe departure, and the driver without cab video feed as now. I think there were three emergency stop plungers provided at even spacing along the platform wall. They were quite small and indistinct, accompanied by a notice promising to stop a departing train, with penalty for misuse. Few people would have noticed them, and in the event of an incident it was unlikely that a passenger would have had time to realise what was happening and locate such a switch before the train had left the platform completely. I don't know if they ever saved a life. Another innovation of the Victoria Line was the station control rooms at ticket hall level. They were also provided with such a plunger for each platform together with video screens to monitor for trouble. Were such plungers installed with the Central Line conversion using a development of the Victoria Line system? They were provided for the Jubilee Line conversion, but dropped from the Northern Line installation soon after! Are they still in use on the Jubilee Line? Were they provided on the Victoria Line with its current signalling system? Interesting, I wonder what would happen on the lines now which are still using platform mounted OPO monitors... |
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Post by tjw on Jul 25, 2022 7:41:50 GMT
Stopping a train is an interesting science...
From my understanding from reading accident reports, a passenger pulling the emergency stop cord on the train seems to be a popular and effective way to stop the train. I suspect a passenger sitting near the cord / lever would be able to quickly reach up and pull... N.B. Some of these cords / levers in certain stock do not directly give a full brake application.
The signalman putting the starter / advanced starter back is also very effective, assuming that the 'box has a view of the platform!
The platform plungers would be difficult to use, as panicking seems to be the general first action of the many! As for station staff they seemed to have difficulty checking to see if the driver had the road before giving the right of way. Many (Big Railway) also had great difficulty finding their whistle to blow 3 times, while raising their arms! Those that reached up and turned the butterfly (a lever at cant rail height on each carriage that opened a small hole in the brake line), seemed to have a better success rate.
The Guards ability to lift the emergency brake was not always 100%, I have seen far too many fall over their bag while reaching back to the handle.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jul 25, 2022 8:11:25 GMT
There was a lot of people that thought that! True it would kill a 420 or 270 code, however if you were coming into a platform on a 180 code, (which was most of the time when coming into a platform), you could coast. I can't remember the exact arrangements for each site (and all the old Victoria Line bookwirings have been disposed of) but from memory the operation of the plunger would cause all codes to be taken off the code feeds, not just 420 or 270. I'll have to double check this when I get access to a bookwiring though - I know some went to Victoria line ATO simulator team. From the generic description given in the original Signalling System of the Victoria Line manual from 1968, it does look like the code wasn't taken off the tracks on the approach side of the station, but only through the platform and over a train's length on departure. It's likely, however, that operation of the plunger would have caused code to be taken off tracks on the approach as a consequence of the platform tracks losing code. Someone like bruce or sweetp might have a better memory than me! Were such plungers installed with the Central Line conversion using a development of the Victoria Line system? They were provided for the Jubilee Line conversion, but dropped from the Northern Line installation soon after! Are they still in use on the Jubilee Line? Were they provided on the Victoria Line with its current signalling system? Yes, No, and Yes. The Central and new Victoria Line systems both provided them, but the JNUP project only provided them on the Jubilee line (where they were never commissioned). This was a bit of a surprise, but there isn't actually a legal requirement for automatic railways to be provided with Emergency Stop Devices unlike other automatic machinery. There were a couple of 'up and coming' managers in LU who suggested that as they weren't being provided on the Jubilee and Northern lines,w e could take them off the Central and Victoria, perhaps not appreciating how this would have altered the safety arguments for the system and how much additional justification would be required to demonstrate that removing the Emergency Stop Devices kept the level of risk to a level that was As Low As Reasonably Practicable. SAs for station staff they seemed to have difficulty checking to see if the driver had the road before giving the right of way. Shouldn't have been a big problem on the Victoria line as all platforms had a corner signal unit on the headwall, enabling platform staff to ensure that the signal was clear or not. |
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Jul 25, 2022 9:29:35 GMT
Was at Seven Sisters one evening when someone operated the plunger as a drunk had fell off the platform,there was bells ringing think it might have put the home signal to danger as a train didn’t arrive until station staff reset the plunger.
Quote removed. Please be selective about the part of a post you wish to quote rather than the whole post verbatim, particularly if you are replying to the previous post in the thread. -Antharro
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Post by sweetp on Jul 25, 2022 9:53:16 GMT
There was a lot of people that thought that! True it would kill a 420 or 270 code, however if you were coming into a platform on a 180 code, (which was most of the time when coming into a platform), you could coast. I can't remember the exact arrangements for each site (and all the old Victoria Line bookwirings have been disposed of) but from memory the operation of the plunger would cause all codes to be taken off the code feeds, not just 420 or 270. I'll have to double check this when I get access to a bookwiring though - I know some went to Victoria line ATO simulator team. From the generic description given in the original Signalling System of the Victoria Line manual from 1968, it does look like the code wasn't taken off the tracks on the approach side of the station, but only through the platform and over a train's length on departure. It's likely, however, that operation of the plunger would have caused code to be taken off tracks on the approach as a consequence of the platform tracks losing code. Someone like bruce or sweetp might have a better memory than me! As Tom suggests, where the Emergency Relay (plunger relay) was included the code selection, it cut the feed entirely, so no code.
Some stations (although I've not found the pattern) did have the ER included in the code selection in the first track circuit into the platform (so would cut 420/270/120 - no 180 on a first track circuit at a three track circuit platform).
The ER never seems to have been provided on the middle track circuit (at a three track circuit platform, the middle track circuit is the first to have 180).
The ER is always provided on the track circuit immediately in the rear of the station starter (last track circuit at a three track circuit platform 120/180/420). The ER is provided on some (but not all) track circuit code selections for a train length out of the station. Again, as Tom suggests, losing a code on one such track circuit would make that track appear occupied, and this would impact other track circuits.
Give me a bit and I'll put up some pics.
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Post by sweetp on Jul 25, 2022 10:21:21 GMT
Ok. Bear with me, as this part of the simulator isn't quite complete (no platforms, and track circuits not labelled):
Here is Seven Sisters with no trains - we're interested in the very bottom line, which runs right to left, northbound. Platform 3 (Northbound) starter is VL4, and the platform consists of the three track circuits in the rear of it. The track circuits are ATO colour-coded (red-120, blue-180, cream-270, green-420, grey-code lost) Here's a train approaching Seven Sisters P3. 420 codes all the way as far as the second track circuit in the platform, then 180 for the last one.
Then the Emergency plunger is pressed:  Codes still 420 until the last track circuit which is code lost/emergency stop Beyond the starter, only certain track circuits have lost their codes, but the rest were all 120 anyway.
Another scenario: Train in the platform ready to depart with a green starter, and a 420 code: The plunger is then pressed: Codes under the train and a full train length are lost.
The reason for this is that the Emergency Relay is not always the first relay in the selection circuit, sometimes a relay giving 120 (in this case VL4(RB) leverband) was ahead of the ER relay.
The net effect is the same, however - if the train does not receive 180/270/420 - emergency stop (And the eagle-eyed will have spotted that VL4 has not returned to danger - it should have done - that's an incompleteness in the simulator)
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Post by joeltancl on Jul 25, 2022 10:53:50 GMT
As far as I know the rules for the Victoria Line were the same.ATO would shut down the cab and reset the alarm.Rules changed once all lines were OPO & passenger alarms were electrical rather than part of the Westinghouse brake.Now alarms have talk back facility it’s continue to next station then investigating. Now getting back inside the trains, I take you to mean that the reset was done at the spot where the alarm was pulled after the train had stopped? Imagine if the alarm had been pulled in the rearmost car, there would be quite some walking for the driver to do... Also, in the early days, did the unrefurbished 67 Stock have their emergency handles in exactly the same places that the unrefurbished 72 Stock had them? Was there an emergency handle on the 67s at what was to become the Guard's position on the 72s ( see this picture from Tubeprune: www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/72%20TS%20Guard%20Controls%20No2%20Side%2072133.jpg )? |
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Post by sweetp on Jul 25, 2022 11:10:12 GMT
Apologies - I've re-read your last and realise you specifically asked for unrefurbished which I misread as refurbished. Ignore my note.
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Post by jimbo on Jul 26, 2022 5:22:43 GMT
We seem to be assuming that since the Northern Line did not have platform stop buttons, then the next system version fitted to the Circle Line also does not have them. Back in Victoria Line days, the next new fleet was C stock for the Circle, designed to be ready for eventual auto-operation. However, it was realised that resignalling was some time away, and Unions agreed under a productivity wage deal to talk about one-person conventional driving. Talks with the Ministry took some time, and ended requiring platform stop buttons, any of which would illuminate three distinctive new red lights up to a train's length beyond the platform, requiring an instant stop by the driver. The signals showed a red cross and had a yellow diamond backboard and cowl. I believe they each also had a trainstop which often required modification to the adjacent current rail. They were installed, but negotiations took some time and I don't think they were on any maintenance cycle. By the time widespread one-person conventional driving was agreed and implemented, the requirement for such provision had been removed, but they remained on site covered in dust and were slowly dismantled in conjunction with other works. I wonder if any individual forgotten lights have survived into the auto-operation age!
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jul 26, 2022 7:07:26 GMT
Indeed it doesn't, but that's starting to venture off-topic.
That said, I do get occasional queries from Thales when they discover one of the old OMO (as it was then) emergency stop lights (which were just signs as described by Jimbo, they didn't have trainstops). The majority of these were removed around 1990, but a few still remain, as do their plungers in a few places.
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Post by joeltancl on Jul 27, 2022 18:44:24 GMT
Apologies - I've re-read your last and realise you specifically asked for unrefurbished which I misread as refurbished. Ignore my note.
No worries! I have now seen (from the web) a picture of what appears to be unrefurbished '67 Stock driving motor car (DM) No. 3016 and there appears to be no emergency stop handle on the '67 stock DM where the Guard would have one for him to use on unrefurbished '72 Stock DMs (that is, on the bulkhead, together with the Guard's controls that featured on 38/56/59/62/72 Stock). It might have been placed somewhere else though... Link: hirespace.com/Spaces/London/174270/Walthamstow-Pumphouse-Museum/1967-Tube-Stock-Carriage/Film-And-Photoand, for comparison to '72Mk1 DM No. 3221 (photo belongs to spsmiler) Link: www.flickr.com/photos/citytransportinfo/49219629863/in/photostream/ Other than that, the placement of the rest of the original alarm handles appears to be similar... Thank you all for your replies regarding early practice with respect to handling passenger alarms within one-man operated (as it was then) trains, and thank you for your input on the passenger emergency plungers outside the trains too! There's always so much to learn about the LU system, its practices and how they both evolved over time... |
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Post by nig on Jul 27, 2022 19:15:00 GMT
The 67 stock never had guards but there was a emergency stop lever in the drivers cab
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Post by jimbo on Jul 28, 2022 1:18:10 GMT
As far as I know the rules for the Victoria Line were the same.ATO would shut down the cab and reset the alarm.Rules changed once all lines were OPO & passenger alarms were electrical rather than part of the Westinghouse brake.Now alarms have talk back facility it’s continue to next station then investigating. Now getting back inside the trains, I take you to mean that the reset was done at the spot where the alarm was pulled after the train had stopped? Imagine if the alarm had been pulled in the rearmost car, there would be quite some walking for the driver to do... Also, in the early days, did the unrefurbished 67 Stock have their alarm handles in exactly the same places that the unrefurbished 72 Stock had them? Was there an emergency handle on the 67s at what was to become the Guard's position on the 72s ( see this picture from Tubeprune: www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/72%20TS%20Guard%20Controls%20No2%20Side%2072133.jpg )? The Victoria Line trains were developed over a number of years to serve the new automatic line, and were a fresh approach after the 1938/59/62 family, using ideas from the 1960 prototypes. In contrast, the 1972 stock were ordered under political pressure to get new trains for the widely publicised 'Misery Line' before a coming election. Within a week the specification was developed, using the recent Victoria Line build shortened by one car, with only one middle cab, and guard positions taken from the 1962 stock design. The guard's bulkhead brake handle enabled an emergency stop should they observe a problem on departure from a platform. Passenger brake handles were sited one at each doorway on a vertical grabrail, at alternate sides of the car. The second build of 1972 stock came about in a similar way, with the train builder threatening closure if a small order was not placed before the 1973 stock order specification was prepared. Now when an electric emergency brake handle is operated, the system reports to the driver that fact together with a car number. Back in Westinghouse days the driver only knew that the train line pipe had lost air somewhere along the train. There was a routine checklist, starting with the driver checking possible sites around the front cab, including trip, deadman, etc. The guard would go to the rear cab to check similar items and especially the rear lights to warn the following train of a delay, including the oil light burning! Only then would the crew walk towards the middle of the train to check passenger emergency handles. The Victoria Line trains were provided with twin rear lights on separate fuses from a battery in the rear car. The train operator may need to walk through all eight cars before returning to the front. On crew operated trains they walked until they met, which would likely be where a handle was operated, possible at one end of the train. |
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