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Post by joeltancl on Dec 9, 2021 9:31:53 GMT
Dear Members
I am unsure if this is even a question that should be asked in this forum. Respected Moderators may please delete/move the thread if they feel that it does not belong in this section or even, in this forum at all.
I read somewhere that LU trains used to have guards or their equivalent (until the last one (Mr Mark Wheeler, according to another Web site) was withdrawn three weeks into 2000) and that the first production type stock launched with one-person operation from day 1 (other than the 1967 Stock) was the 1992 Stock. Subsequent stocks have all been one-person operated from new.
However on some pictures floating around online I see what appears to be door controls on the back wall of the cab in some of the newer stocks (is that what it is even called? I don't know the correct technical terms).
Is there still any theoretical possibility that these trains can be converted for two-person operation? (I know for sure that such an undertaking won't happen in this day and age...)
Regards
Joel
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Post by Dstock7080 on Dec 9, 2021 10:14:05 GMT
1967 Tube Stock were indeed intended for ATO from design.
1960 Tube Stock were converted for ATO use.
C Stock, '72mkI, '72mkII, '73, D, '83, '92 all had provision for being operated by Driver and Guard, Driver only and eventually ATO.
Most modern Stock has a back door control panel for use when the main control cannot or should not be used.
There is no provision to have a separate member of Staff operating in the rear cab these days, the position switch was not provided.
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Post by joeltancl on Dec 9, 2021 10:18:12 GMT
Thank you for your reply. You write that 92 stock was able to be operated by driver and guard. What was the procedure for those guards operating on 92 stock and where were the guards' controls and starting bell located on 92 stock trains?
And what is a position switch, if I may ask? Is it something to activate the correct set of door controls and bell buttons?
Maybe if that had been provided then the 95/96 stock could have been introduced with dedicated guards too. Would have been an interesting sight
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towerman
My status is now now widower
Posts: 2,968
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Post by towerman on Dec 9, 2021 11:20:08 GMT
It’s a a key operated switch that the guard used to “switch on” the door controls.This was to ensure that out of use guard’s positions couldn’t be interferred with.By key I don’t mean a door type key,it was a rather large lump of metal with lugs.i
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Post by Dstock7080 on Dec 9, 2021 11:20:13 GMT
Thank you for your reply. You write that 92 stock was able to be operated by driver and guard. What was the procedure for those guards operating on 92 stock and where were the guards' controls and starting bell located on 92 stock trains? And what is a position switch, if I may ask? Is it something to activate the correct set of door controls and bell buttons? Maybe if that had been provided then the 95/96 stock could have been introduced with dedicated guards too. Would have been an interesting sight ... I’m trying to remember the actual introduction of 1992 and 1995 Stock onto crew operated Lines, my memory maybe failing now but perhaps they weren’t traditionally crew operated, with the former Guard just riding on the train to give reassurance to the Train Operator? (Maybe ‘92 should be removed from my reply above?) LT called the local control panel for the Guard to work the train doors a position switch, requiring a separate key. |
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Post by joeltancl on Dec 9, 2021 11:24:49 GMT
I think either way may be correct regarding 92 stock trains. There is conflicting info on external sources - if my memory is correct, some sources say that some 92 stock trains entered service with driver and guard (with the resulting inference that a phased approach was taken as to one person operation on the Central line) but others say that 92 stock was introduced as a pure One Person Operation stock.
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Post by t697 on Dec 9, 2021 11:27:02 GMT
Yes, the 92TS never had 'provision for' guard operation from the other cab. When passenger service started with the first few 92TS there was still a problem with the train radio automatic OPO Alarm so for a few months the few 92TS trains operating had to carry a 'train jockey' whose role was to make a radio call to the Controller in the unlikely event of driver incapacitation. Rostering them from the engineering team was a daily nightmare, particularly when senior management then snaffled one back to their normal job at a last moment's notice.
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Post by joeltancl on Dec 9, 2021 11:30:32 GMT
Yes, the 92TS never had 'provision for' guard operation from the other cab. When passenger service started with the first few 92TS there was still a problem with the train radio automatic OPO Alarm so for a few months the few 92TS trains operating had to carry a 'train jockey' whose role was to make a radio call to the Controller in the unlikely event of driver incapacitation. Rostering them from the engineering team was a daily nightmare, particularly when senior management then snaffled one back to their normal job at a last moment's notice. Interesting. Where did this jockey ride in? Did he/she (or the ex Guard if he/she was riding with the driver) give advice on when to close the doors of the train and whether it was safe to start? |
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Post by t697 on Dec 9, 2021 11:43:00 GMT
The train jockey rode in the leading cab and was able to sit on the 'instructor's seat'. They were briefed very clearly that this is a One Person Operated train and they are not to operate any control unless the T/Op directly asked them to. They had no role in closing doors or safe dispatch.
Many of them worked in rolling stock engineering so it was a useful way of data gathering on the various teething problems the train had at the time, but the only official purpose was to make that radio call if the driver became incapacitated.
It was also policy that train jockeys would not be drawn from Guards, for various reasons I expect you can work out for yourself!
Once the OPO alarm technical issue was resolved train jockeys were almost immediately withdrawn and this allowed the number of 92TS in service to start ramping up.
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Post by joeltancl on Dec 9, 2021 11:45:23 GMT
The train jockey rode in the leading cab and was able to sit on the 'instructor's seat'. They were briefed very clearly that this is a One Person Operated train and they are not to operate any control unless the T/Op directly asked them to. They had no role in closing doors or safe dispatch. Many of them worked in rolling stock engineering so it was a useful way of data gathering on the various teething problems the train had at the time, but the only official purpose was to make that radio call if the driver became incapacitated. It was also policy that train jockeys would not be drawn from Guards, for various reasons I expect you can work out for yourself! Once the OPO alarm technical issue was resolved train jockeys were almost immediately withdrawn and this allowed the number of 92TS in service to start ramping up. I understand the bit about jockeys not being taken from the Guards pool. But were ex guards riding with the driver given the same warning considering that they had been trained to operate the doors and ring the starting bell on 62 stock trains? |
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Post by t697 on Dec 9, 2021 12:11:27 GMT
I don't recall the Guards riding with the driver. If they were supposed to be on the same train, so as to be ready for the next pick up, which could be a 62TS, then I'm pretty sure they were told to ride in the saloon. Not sure whether that was rigidly adhered to after train jockeys were withdrawn. Someone from Central line Operations at the time may remember.
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Post by joeltancl on Dec 9, 2021 12:15:42 GMT
I don't recall the Guards riding with the driver. If they were supposed to be on the same train, so as to be ready for the next pick up, which could be a 62TS, then I'm pretty sure they were told to ride in the saloon. Not sure whether that was rigidly adhered to after train jockeys were withdrawn. Someone from Central line Operations at the time may remember. Then I must have misinterpreted something I read online. Thank you all for your answers. I learn something new about LU's former practice during Driver and Guard era. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Dec 10, 2021 19:51:12 GMT
On the 1992ts the rear panel door control buttons are used for three situations:-
1) Door control buttons on the desk aren't working
2) CCTV failure on a Category B platform; driver is required to open the cab door and monitor the Platform Train Interface while closing the doors
3) Overrunning the stopping mark (PAC): driver opens the cab door to visually check all the saloon doors are on the platform then opens the doors with the buttons on the rear panel while also activating the Platform Side Door Interlock Control button (aka the yellow mushroom) which is on the panel above the emergency equipment locker next to the J Door
NB if the first set of double doors on the leading car is off the platform the driver operates the End Door Cut Out before opening the doors
1992ts won't motor if any of the rear cab doors are open so old-style guard operation would not be possible
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hobbayne
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Post by hobbayne on Dec 11, 2021 11:03:08 GMT
When I was a Guard Motorman at White City when the 92,s were being introduced, I remember riding with the driver a few times.
This was in the event the train could be reformed with a 62 stock train.
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Post by t697 on Dec 11, 2021 11:47:15 GMT
When I was a Guard Motorman at White City when the 92,s were being introduced, I remember riding with the driver a few times. This was in the event the train could be reformed with a 62 stock train. Thanks for completing the picture. I was a train jockey many times and I don't recall us having 3 in the cab, so I expect the Guard typically rode in the saloon while there were train jockeys. |
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hobbayne
RIP John Lennon and George Harrison
Posts: 516
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Post by hobbayne on Dec 11, 2021 12:00:42 GMT
When I was a Guard Motorman at White City when the 92,s were being introduced, I remember riding with the driver a few times. This was in the event the train could be reformed with a 62 stock train. Thanks for completing the picture. I was a train jockey many times and I don't recall us having 3 in the cab, so I expect the Guard typically rode in the saloon while there were train jockeys. I dont know how long the Guards kept up this practice. I left White City for Northfields in the spring of 1994. The Central went opo the following year. |
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Post by t697 on Dec 11, 2021 13:46:02 GMT
Ah yes, remembering a bit more now. Something like gradual steps where the train running numbers that were allowed to use 92TS increased because there would be specific crew duties with 92TS trained drivers and later the run down of train running numbers allowed to be 62TS as the crew duties wouldn't necessarily include 'in date' 62TS staff and at some point specific duties that wouldn't have a Guard assigned either. That sort of sequence anyway.
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Post by joeltancl on Dec 11, 2021 16:52:38 GMT
When I was a Guard Motorman at White City when the 92,s were being introduced, I remember riding with the driver a few times. This was in the event the train could be reformed with a 62 stock train. Were you allowed to advise the driver when or when not to close the doors? |
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Post by t697 on Dec 12, 2021 9:17:43 GMT
When I was a Guard Motorman at White City when the 92,s were being introduced, I remember riding with the driver a few times. This was in the event the train could be reformed with a 62 stock train. Were you allowed to advise the driver when or when not to close the doors? I think the official position would be no. The 92TS trains have in cab OPO CCTV monitors, in theory optimised for the Train Operator to view not someone else in the cab. Similarly any platform based aids for Guards on 62TS at curved platforms would have been to the rear end of the platform so no use to someone at the front cab. And of course the line was changing to One Person Operation. |
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Post by joeltancl on Dec 12, 2021 13:35:52 GMT
Thanks all for your responses! I learnt a lot about past practice during the two-person operation era.
There is a bit of sadness in me that Guards, and many other wonderful things of the 'old world' as it were, are never going to come back again in this day and age.
I think my questions have been answered sufficiently.
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Post by superteacher on Dec 27, 2021 12:41:16 GMT
I don't recall the Guards riding with the driver. If they were supposed to be on the same train, so as to be ready for the next pick up, which could be a 62TS, then I'm pretty sure they were told to ride in the saloon. Not sure whether that was rigidly adhered to after train jockeys were withdrawn. Someone from Central line Operations at the time may remember. During the early part of 1992 stock introduction, guards were rostered on all duties, regardless of the stock booked to operate it. Sometimes, the guards rode up front and sometimes they stayed in the crew depot. As the rollout continued, certain workings were designated for one person operation and thus had to be operated by 1992 stock. As the service reliability was so poor back them, trains were often reformed meaning that an OPO designated working ended up with a 1962 stock with no guard available! |
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