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Post by jimbo on Aug 24, 2021 20:50:06 GMT
The August 2021 Underground News mentions planned closure of Lillie Bridge depot after some 150 years, as LU moves out to make room for redevelopment. This raises several questions in my mind. S7 are to stable in new roads at Parsons Green and Chiswick Park, but up near Olympia will remain a road/rail access point and berthing for an engineers' train. I presume this will connect to the Olympia line, but not with West Kensington? I also wonder how this proposal is supposed to lead to claimed "increased train crew utilisation and reduced empty train mileage."? It is planned to stable six more trains to the north of Parsons Green station. How will they fit there? On the eastbound side there is little room for more stabling, perhaps another train beyond the current siding. Unless they are going to widen out over adjoining land? There seems to be more space on the westbound side where one train can already stable, and the siding could perhaps be lengthened to fit a second train. Maybe there is room for another two-train siding alongside, but it looks tight to get another road again to fit six more than the current stabling to the north. Good job they are now going ahead with new signalling there, as no-one would want to modify the current 1958 equipment! It seems that six trains will be stabled on the former eastbound coal train route between the two westbound District line branches from Turnham Green. Presumably this will be connected east of Gunnersbury so that trains can enter service there, or stable empty from Richmond. Will this need a new IMR controlled by the Picc, who are to retain control west of Barons Court? (see next post) To me it looks like two roads will be needed to hold six trains in that distance. When Crossrail was planned to reach Richmond back in 2003, it was proposed to move the District line westbound branch track south to make room for two surfacing Crossrail tracks, but the new District line route was to be removed when Crossrail opened. Is there room to retain two stabling roads and westbound within the railway boundary, else will need planning authority which will take time? See: p.59 of 116. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2021 21:02:06 GMT
Parsons Green will be at the east end so between Parsons Green and Fulham Broadway. There will be additional roads created on both sides with 1 additional road on the WB side next to the current siding and another 2 roads on the EB side where the old works depot was, basically putting back what was there before.
Turnham Green will be controlled from the IMR at Turnham Green its a 36 lever shaft frame but currently only 12 levers are in use over the 3 sections so plenty of spares. There is no plans as yet to get rid of the IMR due to 4LM being descoped in that area.
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Post by spsmiler on Aug 24, 2021 23:18:46 GMT
I wonder how much it is hoped to be raised by selling the land for redevelopment?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Aug 25, 2021 5:33:31 GMT
There will be additional roads created on both sides with 1 additional road on the WB side next to the current siding Thought it was 2 new roads on the WB side, one being double-length (32 33Rd) and one 7-car (34Rd), current 28Rd also extended to double-length (30Rd)? 6 new berths in total |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2021 7:19:39 GMT
Couldn’t remember the drawing floating about for PG but its new roads will be both sides
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Aug 25, 2021 8:21:46 GMT
Couldn’t remember the drawing floating about for PG but its new roads will be both sides Are there enough spare levers in the 2 IMRs at Parsons Green for the new sidings. This will also require alterations to the desk that controls Parsons Green area in Earls Court signalling control room. If the Signal Migration Area 05 is commissioned in late 2021 or early 2022 . The Parsons Green desk will be the only one left in Earls Court. |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Aug 25, 2021 8:28:39 GMT
Are there enough spare levers in the 2 IMRs at Parsons Green for the new sidings. This will also require alterations to the desk that controls Parsons Green area in Earls Court signalling control room. If the Signal Migration Area 05 is commissioned in late 2021 or early 2022 . The Parsons Green desk will be the only one left in Earls Court I would guess the new sidings and commissioning of the truncated SMA 12 will be timed together, so that legacy signalling and Earl’s Court would not require modification |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2021 17:46:36 GMT
Are there enough spare levers in the 2 IMRs at Parsons Green for the new sidings. This will also require alterations to the desk that controls Parsons Green area in Earls Court signalling control room. If the Signal Migration Area 05 is commissioned in late 2021 or early 2022 . The Parsons Green desk will be the only one left in Earls Court I would guess the new sidings and commissioning of the truncated SMA 12 will be timed together, so that legacy signalling and Earl’s Court would not require modification Correct |
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Post by jimbo on Aug 25, 2021 21:01:07 GMT
Parsons Green will be at the east end so between Parsons Green and Fulham Broadway. There will be additional roads created on both sides with 1 additional road on the WB side next to the current siding and another 2 roads on the EB side where the old works depot was, basically putting back what was there before..... Original layout after last resignalling here looks as today, bar lifting of short roads for 2-car uncoupling units. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2021 9:49:34 GMT
Yes I’m aware of the old layout as I can see it when I go into the west IMR
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Post by scheduler on Aug 27, 2021 21:57:29 GMT
I also wonder how this proposal is supposed to lead to claimed "increased train crew utilisation and reduced empty train mileage."? That is relatively simple, empties to/from Richmond that would ordinarily run to/from West end of Lillie Bridge need only go to Chiswick Park, this is less empty running. There are also some trains early/late that run to/from West end of Lillie Bridge from Ealing Broadway, although westbound they enter service at Barons Court and eastbound detrain at Hammersmith, I still think there's less empty running if the trains are at Chiswick Park. Also the main stabling to/from Lillie Bridge out of the east side via Olympia, is about 9 minutes train travel time from Earl's Court, not counting driver having to reverse at Olympia, whereas running to Parsons Green takes 5 minutes, even if a reversing shunt move is required, that must be less empty running, especially as you could potentially be in passenger service until Parsons Green. |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Aug 28, 2021 6:34:04 GMT
There are also some trains early/late that run to/from West end of Lillie Bridge from Ealing Broadway, although westbound they enter service at Barons Court and eastbound detrain at Hammersmith, I still think there's less empty running if the trains are at Chiswick Park. How would trains from the new Turnham Green/Chiswick Park sidings get access to the Ealing branch? The sidings will be on the westbound/down side and must run to Gunnersbury first, then eastbound to West Kensington as a minimum. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 28, 2021 9:45:29 GMT
There are also some trains early/late that run to/from West end of Lillie Bridge from Ealing Broadway, although westbound they enter service at Barons Court and eastbound detrain at Hammersmith, I still think there's less empty running if the trains are at Chiswick Park. How would trains from the new Turnham Green/Chiswick Park sidings get access to the Ealing branch? . Why would they need to? Rosters would be arranged so that trains entering/leaving service at Ealing use Ealing Common depot. |
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Post by jimbo on Aug 28, 2021 21:17:40 GMT
Chiswick Park and Parsons Green are both cramped locations, picked after review of 25 possible sites. That's almost every station west of the central area! If they included surface stations out to Upminster, it is still two thirds. I wonder where were the runners up? What alternatives just missed out? I guess west of Chiswick Park was out of the question, given that the Ealing Broadway branch becomes Piccadilly line once resignalling of that line is done, maybe ten years on, with a boost to Richmond and Wimbledon branches. That raises the question whether these sidings will use the site planned for Richmond branch platforms linked to Chiswick Park station, once part of that split. Or whether those were to be sited west of Acton Lane road bridge.
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Post by jimbo on Aug 31, 2021 9:44:19 GMT
Parsons Green will be at the east end so between Parsons Green and Fulham Broadway. There will be additional roads created on both sides with ... another 2 roads on the EB side where the old works depot was ..... Is one of the new roads on the eastbound side an extension of the current siding? Or are they both new roads that will require construction of a viaduct alongside the current tracks? |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Aug 31, 2021 16:02:21 GMT
Is one of the new roads on the eastbound side an extension of the current siding? Or are they both new roads that will require construction of a viaduct alongside the current tracks EB side existing double-length 25/27Rd (known as 27 top and 27 bottom) remains between the stabled trains will be a set of points leading to new single-length 26Rd and 26A Rd. |
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Post by roman80 on Sept 1, 2021 11:32:50 GMT
At Parsons Green, will there be the ability to run in and out of the new yards from Fulham Broadway? Currently when Parsons Green is used to terminate trains that are put away in times of disruption, the process seems quite slow as often both directions are blocked to stop and reverse a train into the yard. If ever Stamford Bridge becomes a 60,000 seat stadium (unlikely even medium term as they've just spent money on new safe standing seats), Fulham Broadway starters and terminators would be helpful in clearing the crowds.
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Post by goldenarrow on Sept 1, 2021 11:52:04 GMT
Would the loss of stabling capacity at Lillie Bridge finally provide the impetus to crack on with Farringdon City Sidings?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Sept 1, 2021 12:03:54 GMT
At Parsons Green, will there be the ability to run in and out of the new yards from Fulham Broadway? Currently when Parsons Green is used to terminate trains that are put away in times of disruption, the process seems quite slow as often both directions are blocked to stop and reverse a train into the yard. If ever Stamford Bridge becomes a 60,000 seat stadium (unlikely even medium term as they've just spent money on new safe standing seats), Fulham Broadway starters and terminators would be helpful in clearing the crowds. Unfortunately not, the new sidings are aligned as the current ones. There will however be a new diamond crossing just east of the station, which will allow access into/out of the new and existing sidings from both platforms. Would the loss of stabling capacity at Lillie Bridge finally provide the impetus to crack on with Farringdon City Sidings? These projects are separate, Lillie Bridge gives up 12 stabling roads, to be replaced with 6 new at Parsons Green and 6 new at Chiswick Park/Turnham Green. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2021 15:19:46 GMT
If only they never removed Ealing Broadway that would of been 3 roads
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Post by d7666 on Sept 1, 2021 15:47:41 GMT
I wonder how much it is hoped to be raised by selling the land for redevelopment? I'll put money on they already know, already have a waiting buyer, and have factored this into the project, and know it will, on paper book keeping, show a positive return. |
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Sept 1, 2021 15:54:53 GMT
d7666 and spsmiler
I expect that a developer suggested the idea.
Are stuffed brown envelopes still available??
Having had an insight into local government and "developers" over very many years, all the 'signs' are there......
Fortunes were made via the sale of ex-LT and LCBS bus garages, so now, what's left? Ah yes! Railway depots!
After all, when history repeats itself, the price does tend to go up.
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Post by jimbo on Sept 1, 2021 19:45:42 GMT
If only they never removed Ealing Broadway that would of been 3 roads I think the Picc upgrade also have their eyes on that area to stable north of Acton Town for morning Picc start-ups, and to relieve pressure on evening District stabling in Ealing Depot! Two competing aims! |
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Post by jimbo on Sept 1, 2021 19:51:35 GMT
I wonder how much it is hoped to be raised by selling the land for redevelopment? I'll put money on they already know, already have a waiting buyer, and have factored this into the project, and know it will, on paper book keeping, show a positive return. It is being sold to Earls Court Partnership Limited (ECPL), the joint venture between Delancey/APG and TfL, so they are partly selling it to themselves. But the deal involves TfL finding no money for their part of the purchase. It will all be adjusted in the partnership share, with the developer also paying for the costs of TfL relocation in the same way. See: p.59 of 116. |
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Sept 1, 2021 22:34:36 GMT
If only they never removed Ealing Broadway that would of been 3 roads The sidings at Ealing Broadway District line were disused for at least 20 years, old bullhead rail and points, no walkways and unstable to stable 7 car S Stock. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2021 9:50:15 GMT
If only they never removed Ealing Broadway that would of been 3 roads The sidings at Ealing Broadway District line were disused for at least 20 years, old bullhead rail and points, no walkways and unstable to stable 7 car S Stock. I agree but have you ever heard of items being replaced? It’s a plot of empty disused land suitable in length |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Sept 2, 2021 20:30:48 GMT
If only they never removed Ealing Broadway that would of been 3 roads Agree - pity there wasn't a crystal ball when we did it! |
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Post by jimbo on Sept 3, 2021 1:12:06 GMT
If the 1970s Chelsea-Hackney line proposals had come to fruition, the Parsons Green stabling sidings would have become a four-track section of line, with cross-platform interchange. The District line would have been curtailed at Parsons Green to reverse on the current two running lines south of the station, whilst the new line would have surfaced north of the station on to the current sidings and provided a more frequent service to Wimbledon. The original proposal was for tube-gauge trains to link through to the Hainault branch, but this later became D Stock type trains to the Epping branch. Plans have changed over the years, but it remains on foot as Crossrail 2 which still aims to serve Wimbledon by a different route!
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Post by jimbo on Sept 6, 2021 4:50:10 GMT
If only they never removed Ealing Broadway that would of been 3 roads The sidings at Ealing Broadway District line were disused for at least 20 years, old bullhead rail and points, no walkways and unstable to stable 7 car S Stock. Those sidings also gave access to Central line for engineers trains, until Ruislip siding was constructed to help Jubilee line works. Were they ever scheduled for stabling after uncoupling was abandoned on the District line in 1971? |
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Sept 6, 2021 9:13:38 GMT
I have to suggest that jimbo is wrong.
My memory tells me that access to the Central Line from the District at Ealing Broadway, was direct access from a reversal at platform 7
NOT from those sidings.
The sidings, actually had nothing whatsoever to do with Central/District stock moves.
I have seen redundant surface stock arrive from Ealing Common directly into platform 7
Then go out, via a reversal, direct to North Acton,
where they reversed again and went to Ruislip depot.
This would have been around 1972
There was never a chord. A chord is a line segment connecting two points on a curve.
Carto Metro is confusing because it shows the old connection to the GWR for trains to Windsor over 100 years ago
There was only ever a facing junction from Platform 7 which others that were there at the time, as I was, will confirm
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