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Post by Dstock7080 on Apr 26, 2021 10:56:18 GMT
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Apr 26, 2021 11:36:24 GMT
Does this mean a cut in the numbers of drivers on the Bakerloo Line ?
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Apr 26, 2021 12:25:27 GMT
In theory it means four fewer drivers are required during the off-peak period, but it will depend on rosters whether that happens in practice. I think someone commented not too long ago that all (non-night tube) shifts cover at least one peak period.
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Post by superteacher on Apr 26, 2021 18:05:15 GMT
Hope this is only a temporary reduction. Hopefully, when we get all of the tourists back next year, we will need the off peak services to be increased again. I also detest the phrase "to improve service reliability." It's a financial cutback, pure and simple!
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metman
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Post by metman on Apr 26, 2021 20:27:14 GMT
I wonder if it is also helping release stock for accessibility works?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2021 15:57:40 GMT
Unlikely as the peak requirement is unchanged at 31x7. It is the off-peaks that change - 24x7 MF (-4), 28x7 Sat (-1) and 24x7 Sun (-3).
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Post by jimbo on Apr 27, 2021 20:51:15 GMT
Wasn't this promised some time back as a result of staff discontent with the current service demands? It takes time to produce a revised timetable, especially with Covid difficulties. I don't think it is an indicator of what to expect on other lines any time soon.
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Post by Chris L on Apr 28, 2021 8:09:04 GMT
I wonder if it is also helping release stock for accessibility works? They really need to have solved the problem of getting wheelchairs on/off trains north of Queens Park to make the work worthwhile. That's without the problem of stations with only stairs.
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Post by PiccNT on Apr 28, 2021 10:26:30 GMT
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Apr 28, 2021 11:16:17 GMT
I wonder if it is also helping release stock for accessibility works? They really need to have solved the problem of getting wheelchairs on/off trains north of Queens Park to make the work worthwhile. That's without the problem of stations with only stairs. While more accessible stations is unquestionably a Good Thing, to say that making the trains accessible would not be worthwhile without more stations north of Queen's Park is not correct. Firstly access needs are more complicated than just level access (e.g. some people can use escalators but not stairs, or can slowly manage a short flight of stairs but not a large step to a train), and the tube map does a very poor job of indicating accessibility. As just one example, the same-direction interchanges at Baker Street, Oxford Circus and north of Queen's Park can all be done on the level and Paddington will become step-free when the Crossrail station opens. Basically as long as the modifications allow travel between at least one pair of stations for at least some people who couldn't otherwise do so it is worthwhile.
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Post by superteacher on Apr 28, 2021 20:09:30 GMT
I’m neither pro nor anti-union, but I can see their point. This is a very slippery slope.
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Post by scheduler on May 17, 2021 19:11:37 GMT
For those unfamiliar here's the timetable saga of the last few years on the Bakerloo Line.
Once upon a time there was LO EUS-WFJ every 20 mins, which melded perfectly well with LU's 6tph Harrow and 3tph to STP. Then someone decided the LO was going to increase the EUS-WFJ to 4tph, but that the LU service levels were to remain unchanged. You don't need to be a maths genius to figure out that doesn't work very well. And indeed it doesn't. The resulting timetable was a total compromise, the LO services were 13/17 instead of clockface 15's. The LU's to Harrow were every 10, but alternate trains were reversed on minimum allowed layover. As were about 40% of QUP trains. The STP trains all had massive layovers. All Elephant step-back's were 2 trains. And the result of this timetable was 1. Line controllers complained that after disruption major or minor they couldn't get back on time. 2. Drivers via unions were complaining at never finishing their duty on time, and threatening strike action over the timetable. A stop-gap measure to prioritise LU over LO trains north of QUP and one train stripped from the off-peak eased the situation a little. But in reality a new timetable was needed, and this is it. The line asked for and got the beautifully melded 4tph LO, 4tph Harrow 4tph STP. And the consequent reduction in off-peak south of QUP by approx. 1 train per hour. Step-back is increased to 3 trains at Elephant. All of this makes the whole timetable as robust as the version back the days of 3tph LO. Unfortunately when the duty rostas were done this reduced the required number of drivers by 1 or 2. Why the unions complain and threatened strike action when the timetable was unreliable, then we give them what they asked for, they complain and threaten strike action again I don't know, can't fathom and don't comprehend. Anyway the slight reduction is nothing to do with COVID and there are no plans to re-increase it again, until someone finds the funds for the Bakerloo Extension, the line is re-signalled and more trains and services are needed.
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Post by jimbo on May 18, 2021 5:36:03 GMT
I presume with training problems of the last year, the reduction of 1 or 2 drivers are not actual people, but unfilled vacancies. So any union action is not on behalf of defending any members, but of objecting to reductions in the maximum possible members if all positions were filled. These would soon be absorbed in normal staff wastage anyway.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on May 18, 2021 22:25:19 GMT
I presume with training problems of the last year, the reduction of 1 or 2 drivers are not actual people, but unfilled vacancies. So any union action is not on behalf of defending any members, but of objecting to reductions in the maximum possible members if all positions were filled. These would soon be absorbed in normal staff wastage anyway. I suspect the union may see it as a reduction in possible future paying members.
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Post by Westinghouse on May 19, 2021 7:11:51 GMT
Here lies the problem from my point of view.
The new timetable shows a reduction in need for 1-2 drivers, the new roster at Queen's Park has gone from 101 down to 90, a reduction of 11 drivers. That's quite a discrepancy that LU have refused to justify or even attempt to answer when questioned.
10% of drivers have lost their rostered position and have been put back into the pool, until such time that natural wastage brings the number down.
Being in the pool certainly has is foibles and pool drivers are not permitted to be part of the Mafia, that on top of the hardest hit duties being in the 9am-5pm Range means anyone with caring responsibilities that used to preference this shifts have been totally shafted.
The union, made up of those members quite rightly want serious discussion regarding such a number of job losses, so far the concerns raised have not been answered, the members are unhappy, the reps have not signed off on the new rosters.
As of the 16th May they have been unilaterally imposed.
Naturally this leads to a dispute arising between LU and RMT.
On a lighter note, the new timetable certainly looks much better, although I haven't tested it in anger yet as we were special working on Sunday, Job went up the wall on Monday and I was Rest day on Tuesday (starting to sound like a Craig David song)
We are back to a 5-6min 2 train step back at Elephant and it was catching people out yesterday, we got used to the 3 train 10min's of the last timetable. Have to decide between using the tea point or the toilet as we now don't have time for both.
LU being prioritised above London Overground north of the Park? Maybe someone forgot to let Webley Suburban know as I haven't been prioritised ever, although my sample size of 1 is not meaningful statistically, the Bakerloo has always been at the bottom of the pecking order on NR metals!
I book on soon so will get to see if it all works as planned.
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Post by PiccNT on May 19, 2021 8:54:44 GMT
Here lies the problem from my point of view. The new timetable shows a reduction in need for 1-2 drivers, the new roster at Queen's Park has gone from 101 down to 90, a reduction of 11 drivers. That's quite a discrepancy that LU have refused to justify or even attempt to answer when questioned. 10% of drivers have lost their rostered position and have been put back into the pool, until such time that natural wastage brings the number down. Being in the pool certainly has is foibles and pool drivers are not permitted to be part of the Mafia, that on top of the hardest hit duties being in the 9am-5pm Range means anyone with caring responsibilities that used to preference this shifts have been totally shafted. The union, made up of those members quite rightly want serious discussion regarding such a number of job losses, so far the concerns raised have not been answered, the members are unhappy, the reps have not signed off on the new rosters. As of the 16th May they have been unilaterally imposed. Naturally this leads to a dispute arising between LU and RMT. On a lighter note, the new timetable certainly looks much better, although I haven't tested it in anger yet as we were special working on Sunday, Job went up the wall on Monday and I was Rest day on Tuesday (starting to sound like a Craig David song) We are back to a 5-6min 2 train step back at Elephant and it was catching people out yesterday, we got used to the 3 train 10min's of the last timetable. Have to decide between using the tea point or the toilet as we now don't have time for both. LU being prioritised above London Overground north of the Park? Maybe someone forgot to let Webley Suburban know as I haven't been prioritised ever, although my sample size of 1 is not meaningful statistically, the Bakerloo has always been at the bottom of the pecking order on NR metals! I book on soon so will get to see if it all works as planned. Hi Westinghouse. Certainly on my line, pool drivers can join the syndicate (Mafia) and section 3.3 of the "Syndicate Compliance and Guidance" confirms that pool drivers can join. Unless it's a local agreement on your line that overrides the standard agreement?
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Post by Westinghouse on May 19, 2021 9:35:48 GMT
Here lies the problem from my point of view. The new timetable shows a reduction in need for 1-2 drivers, the new roster at Queen's Park has gone from 101 down to 90, a reduction of 11 drivers. That's quite a discrepancy that LU have refused to justify or even attempt to answer when questioned. 10% of drivers have lost their rostered position and have been put back into the pool, until such time that natural wastage brings the number down. Being in the pool certainly has is foibles and pool drivers are not permitted to be part of the Mafia, that on top of the hardest hit duties being in the 9am-5pm Range means anyone with caring responsibilities that used to preference this shifts have been totally shafted. The union, made up of those members quite rightly want serious discussion regarding such a number of job losses, so far the concerns raised have not been answered, the members are unhappy, the reps have not signed off on the new rosters. As of the 16th May they have been unilaterally imposed. Naturally this leads to a dispute arising between LU and RMT. On a lighter note, the new timetable certainly looks much better, although I haven't tested it in anger yet as we were special working on Sunday, Job went up the wall on Monday and I was Rest day on Tuesday (starting to sound like a Craig David song) We are back to a 5-6min 2 train step back at Elephant and it was catching people out yesterday, we got used to the 3 train 10min's of the last timetable. Have to decide between using the tea point or the toilet as we now don't have time for both. LU being prioritised above London Overground north of the Park? Maybe someone forgot to let Webley Suburban know as I haven't been prioritised ever, although my sample size of 1 is not meaningful statistically, the Bakerloo has always been at the bottom of the pecking order on NR metals! I book on soon so will get to see if it all works as planned. Hi Westinghouse. Certainly on my line, pool drivers can join the syndicate (Mafia) and section 3.3 of the "Syndicate Compliance and Guidance" confirms that pool drivers can join. Unless it's a local agreement on your line that overrides the standard agreement? I have been reliably informed that the Picc and Elephant Bakerloo are the only places that you can be in the Mafia whilst in the pool, I have worked on both lines so it came as a shock to me when I found out it's not allowed at other depots
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Tom
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Post by Tom on May 19, 2021 13:48:51 GMT
The union, made up of those members quite rightly want serious discussion regarding such a number of job losses, so far the concerns raised have not been answered, the members are unhappy, the reps have not signed off on the new rosters. Which union do you mean? Ive assumed RMT, but it wasn't clear.
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DWS
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Post by DWS on May 19, 2021 17:12:59 GMT
The union, made up of those members quite rightly want serious discussion regarding such a number of job losses, so far the concerns raised have not been answered, the members are unhappy, the reps have not signed off on the new rosters. Which union do you mean? Ive assumed RMT, but it wasn't clear. As far as I know is only RMT who are in dispute with LUL. As to ALSLEF they have not called for Strike action .
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Tom
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Post by Tom on May 19, 2021 17:31:46 GMT
That was my view as well, but as many of us know there isn't a single union representing the whole of the Underground, rightly or wrongly (which we won't get into here!). That's why when people say "The Union" it's important to clarify which one.
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Post by Chris L on May 19, 2021 19:27:31 GMT
That was my view as well, but as many of us know there isn't a single union representing the whole of the Underground, rightly or wrongly ( which we won't get into here!). That's why when people say "The Union" it's important to clarify which one. The TSSA (Transport Salaried Staffs Association) have members. Senior staff used to be represented by BTOG. (British Transport Officers Guild). When I joined London Transport in July 1972 you had to join a union.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on May 19, 2021 21:25:45 GMT
Indeed; I remember one BTOG member when I joined the Signalling Design Office, but they were very much the minority. Not sure what happened to them. I can certainly think of colleagues who have been in ASLEF, TSSA, RMT, and Unite - indeed in some parts of the organisation Unite is stronger than the RMT.
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Post by Chris M on May 19, 2021 23:11:19 GMT
I'd never heard of BTOG before and Google finds no results more recent than 2007. The last archived version of their website (2014) says "Transport Professionals Association is the successor to the British Transport Officers Guild." I can't find very much information about that organisation either, but the same version of the BTOG website also says "If you are a member of TPA and need assistance please contact the Unite Officer responsible for the TPA" suggesting that it was part of Unite the Union. Searching for TPA and Unite the Union is not helpful as all the content relates to the Taxpayers Alliance, a very different organisation.
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Post by Westinghouse on May 20, 2021 6:46:37 GMT
The union, made up of those members quite rightly want serious discussion regarding such a number of job losses, so far the concerns raised have not been answered, the members are unhappy, the reps have not signed off on the new rosters. Which union do you mean? Ive assumed RMT, but it wasn't clear. Sorry, as it had been noted upthread, the RMT have balloted for industrial action, should have clarified that I was indeed referring to RMT as 'the union' even though the RMT had been referred to as 'the union' in multiple posts up to mine. Will try and be more specific in future!
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Post by 35b on May 20, 2021 6:55:32 GMT
I'd never heard of BTOG before and Google finds no results more recent than 2007. The last archived version of their website (2014) says "Transport Professionals Association is the successor to the British Transport Officers Guild." I can't find very much information about that organisation either, but the same version of the BTOG website also says "If you are a member of TPA and need assistance please contact the Unite Officer responsible for the TPA" suggesting that it was part of Unite the Union. Searching for TPA and Unite the Union is not helpful as all the content relates to the Taxpayers Alliance, a very different organisation. That suggests to me that they merged into Unite.
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Post by Westinghouse on May 20, 2021 7:33:14 GMT
It's early days yet, but it's pretty safe to say the new timetable has solved most of the issues the line has faced in recent years, the turn around times make a massive difference.
There have been some unexpected benefits, there is a train that stables at London Road Depot during the off-peak. The Train Managers at Elephant are now able to assess Elephant drivers as part of the competence management system. Before this involved both driver and manager having to travel up to Stonebridge Park Depot.
There are a number of early turns at Elephant that also stable off-peak at Stonebridge Park now.
The above are both very useful for a training and licencing requirements and allow trainees to do their road test at their home depot, with many more duties suitable for the 'office hours' that the Training and Development department works.
Last but not least, sometimes less is more, so we should be able to run a more reliable service for passengers, which at the end of the day is what really matters!
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Post by scheduler on May 25, 2021 17:26:32 GMT
It's early days yet, but it's pretty safe to say the new timetable has solved most of the issues the line has faced in recent years, the turn around times make a massive difference. There have been some unexpected benefits, there is a train that stables at London Road Depot during the off-peak. The Train Managers at Elephant are now able to assess Elephant drivers as part of the competence management system. Before this involved both driver and manager having to travel up to Stonebridge Park Depot. There are a number of early turns at Elephant that also stable off-peak at Stonebridge Park now. The above are both very useful for a training and licencing requirements and allow trainees to do their road test at their home depot, with many more duties suitable for the 'office hours' that the Training and Development department works. Last but not least, sometimes less is more, so we should be able to run a more reliable service for passengers, which at the end of the day is what really matters! Sounds like there's a lot of positives there. My colleagues done a good job on the timetable itself. Nice to get some good feedback.
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