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Post by lttractiongroup on Sept 9, 2020 17:42:12 GMT
The question is as per the title; I know that the UNDMs had simplified driving controls for emergency and shunting use but I was wondering if anyone around here can offer an insight into what these were like to use. Also, does anyone have a photo of the shunting panel open with the controls on display?
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Post by John Tuthill on Sept 9, 2020 17:47:11 GMT
The question is as per the title; I know that the UNDMs had simplified driving controls for emergency and shunting use but I was wondering if anyone around here can offer an insight into what these were like to use. Also, does anyone have a photo of the shunting panel open with the controls on display? Check out Piers Connors history of the 1938 stock. I'll stand corrected, but I think the UNDMs were only on the 1949 stock?
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Post by lttractiongroup on Sept 9, 2020 18:04:50 GMT
Yes, you're quite right; I forgot to specify that!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2020 22:22:34 GMT
There were 70 new 1949 UNDMs (30022-30045, 31000-31045) and 22 conversions from 1938 Tube Stock (30000-30021)
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Post by jimbo on Sept 10, 2020 3:49:14 GMT
The UNDMs were introduced in 1952 with the intention of enabling an uncoupled 3-car unit to stable whilst the 4-car unit remained in service off-peak, but avoiding the cost of a full cab in the middle of trains which took up passenger space. However, off-peak uncoupling was abandoned on these lines around 1960, so UNDM shunting would only then have been an occasional requirement within depots. Perhaps it was even preferred to drive the 4-car unit onto or off the 3-car. I know that vision was very poor. So they would have seen little use. On withdrawal, sufficient shunting cabinets were obtained for the new 1972 mark I trains, so they would have seen further limited use within depots. The 1972 mark II had new shunting cabinets, and the mark I were re-equipped as part of their refurbishment.
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Post by John Tuthill on Sept 10, 2020 7:03:39 GMT
There were 70 new 1949 UNDMs (30022-30045, 31000-31045) and 22 conversions from 1938 Tube Stock (30000-30021) Thank you for that, I'd forgotten about the '38s conversions
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Post by brigham on Sept 10, 2020 7:52:35 GMT
What was it like driving from the uncoupling end?
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class411
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Post by class411 on Sept 10, 2020 8:16:48 GMT
Presumably UND stands for 'Undriven' (or Unidirectional), so does the 'M' stand for 'motorised'.
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Post by lttractiongroup on Sept 10, 2020 8:19:39 GMT
No - UNDM means Uncoupling Non Driving Motor.
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Post by selbiehouse on Sept 10, 2020 12:06:06 GMT
Photograph no. 70 in Tube Trains Under London by J. Graeme Bruce (1977 edition) shows an interior view of a 1949 Tube Stock car with the control cabinet open. Unfortunately the photographer was positioned rather too far down the car to show detail in close up. In Underground Train File Tube Stock 1933-59 by Brian Hardy it is explained how the UNDM cars were transferred away from the Bakerloo to the Piccadilly in the early 1950s as when uncoupling at Watford Junction the two mile journey to Croxley Depot with the UNDM car leading was considered unsuitable.
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Post by John Tuthill on Sept 10, 2020 13:49:45 GMT
Photograph no. 70 in Tube Trains Under London by J. Graeme Bruce (1977 edition) shows an interior view of a 1949 Tube Stock car with the control cabinet open. Unfortunately the photographer was positioned rather too far down the car to show detail in close up. In Underground Train File Tube Stock 1933-59 by Brian Hardy it is explained how the UNDM cars were transferred away from the Bakerloo to the Piccadilly in the early 1950s as when uncoupling at Watford Junction the two mile journey to Croxley Depot with the UNDM car leading was considered unsuitable. In Piers Connors' "1938 stock", on page 66 there is a close up photo of the control panel, a photo showing the wiring involved and a UNDM coupled up to a 'normal'end car.
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Post by seaeagle on Sept 10, 2020 17:59:48 GMT
What was it like driving from the uncoupling end? Can't speak for the 38 stock, but the 72 stock was bloody horrible to drive from the cabinet, trying to control the three car unit from driving controls you aren't familiar with while trying to see out of the connecting door droplight window, so glad I only had to do it a few times.
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Post by t697 on Sept 10, 2020 18:19:26 GMT
What was it like driving from the uncoupling end? Can't speak for the 38 stock, but the 72 stock was bloody horrible to drive from the cabinet, trying to control the three car unit from driving controls you aren't familiar with while trying to see out of the connecting door droplight window, so glad I only had to do it a few times. Quite so. The entire Bakerloo 72TS fleet was turned round many years ago so the 'D' end 3 car unit is at the west end. Thus train reforms in Stonebridge Park depot can usually be done by shunting the 'A' 4 car unit now at the east end from one stationary 3 car to another one. The 4 car has sensible controls and windscreens at both ends.
Shunting mishaps reduced as a result.
(Traditionally on an end to end LUL line where trains don't get turned round, the 'A' end of a train is the west end and the 'D' end east. Actually the only lines that don't get trains turned round now are the Bakerloo, Jubilee, Victoria and W&C. The District has the C&H turn theirs now they share the S7s!)
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Post by jimbo on Sept 10, 2020 20:14:46 GMT
What was it like driving from the uncoupling end? Can't speak for the 38 stock, but the 72 stock was bloody horrible to drive from the cabinet, trying to control the three car unit from driving controls you aren't familiar with while trying to see out of the connecting door droplight window, so glad I only had to do it a few times. Don't all the other tube lines also have shunting control cabinets in the middle cars, except the new Vic line trains? It must be easier with end windows now, although Picc line trains didn't have those until refurbishment. Also the C and D stocks until S stock arrived.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Sept 11, 2020 5:41:59 GMT
Don't all the other tube lines also have shunting control cabinets in the middle cars, except the new Vic line trains?. Unlike S Stock, Victoria 2009 Stock have uncoupling equipment and emergency shunting controls in the middle.
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Post by jimbo on Sept 13, 2020 3:41:12 GMT
In the days of 1949TS UNDMs all drivers were trained to operate from shunting cabinets, as uncoupling and coupling was part of normal passenger services. These days, since they are only required within depots, is it only depot staff who are trained to use them? Back in the 1960s a normal method of dealing with a person under a train was to split the train at the nearest convenient point, to reduce the number of cars to be moved over the casualty before recovery. Current day Central line trains can be split into two-car units, but I suspect that would today require depot staff assistance since they are not regularly coupled and uncoupled out on the road.
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Post by North End on Sept 13, 2020 13:30:18 GMT
In the days of 1949TS UNDMs all drivers were trained to operate from shunting cabinets, as uncoupling and coupling was part of normal passenger services. These days, since they are only required within depots, is it only depot staff who are trained to use them? Back in the 1960s a normal method of dealing with a person under a train was to split the train at the nearest convenient point, to reduce the number of cars to be moved over the casualty before recovery. Current day Central line trains can be split into two-car units, but I suspect that would today require depot staff assistance since they are not regularly coupled and uncoupled out on the road. Can only speak for my area, however operating staff are trained on the shunting cabinets, but it’s a cursory “here’s what each button does” rather than a proper familiarisation with the chance to practice in anger. As such I’d say such staff aren’t really equipped with the familiarity to use them. Splitting trains at one unders is pretty unheard of now, I’ve not heard of it happening on my line in my time. Really there’s little to no need for it. Perhaps more of an issue on the sub-surface lines, but splitting an S stock is unfeasible anyway. There isn’t much point in training people on something that they will never do in anger and probably never need to. Even coupling trains is very much off the agenda nowadays, which is something I’d say is more of an issue (having personally had to do about 8 couple-ups in the last couple of years - it’s funny now being familiar with doing something leads to more being asked to do it!).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2020 17:43:04 GMT
On the Bakerloo, the 'A' ends face south and the 'D' ends face north. The Bakerloo Line is officially a north-south railway (on LU at least).
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Post by jimbo on Sept 13, 2020 23:19:03 GMT
In the days of 1949TS UNDMs all drivers were trained to operate from shunting cabinets, as uncoupling and coupling was part of normal passenger services. These days, since they are only required within depots, is it only depot staff who are trained to use them? Back in the 1960s a normal method of dealing with a person under a train was to split the train at the nearest convenient point, to reduce the number of cars to be moved over the casualty before recovery. Current day Central line trains can be split into two-car units, but I suspect that would today require depot staff assistance since they are not regularly coupled and uncoupled out on the road. It was the need to split trains to deal with incidents along the line that led to the Operating Department objecting to proposals for articulated cars in what became the 1973TS, although engineers constructed a demonstration pair out of two standard stock driving motor cars which remained for some years. Funny then that 50 years later the replacements for those trains will be fully articulated 9-car sets.
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metman
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Post by metman on Sept 14, 2020 11:15:08 GMT
Demonstration cars were two ex 1935 tube stock driving motor cars which had been withdrawn from service form the Central Line shuttles.
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Post by jimbo on Sept 14, 2020 11:56:07 GMT
Demonstration cars were two ex 1935 tube stock driving motor cars which had been withdrawn from service form the Central Line shuttles. Of course, there wouldn't have much space left with a couple of standard stock back to back, with the equipment compartments! Sorry! photo here
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Post by bruce on Sept 14, 2020 16:40:54 GMT
Demonstration cars were two ex 1935 tube stock driving motor cars which had been withdrawn from service form the Central Line shuttles. I did see this unit once and I think the guards end of the cars had been shortened.
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metman
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Post by metman on Sept 15, 2020 11:18:33 GMT
Quite a bit shortened it would seem - two of the rear three windows and the single leaf door!
Getting back onto the UNDM; the 1949 batch was delivered with beamless shoegear like the R stock and like the R stock it was not a success being replaced with conventional shoe beams in the early 60s I think.
Did the 1938 conversions also have beamless shoegear or was it just the 1949 new builds?
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Post by jimbo on Sept 15, 2020 19:39:43 GMT
Don't all the other tube lines also have shunting control cabinets in the middle cars, except the new Vic line trains?. Unlike S Stock, Victoria 2009 Stock have uncoupling equipment and emergency shunting controls in the middle. It seems that the new Vic line trains have middle shunting cabinets, but no auto-couplers so can't be split without the coupling bar being removed. The first S stock were built alongside the final 2009TS, and early documentation made mention of shunting controls in the middle of these trains. I wonder, did the pre-production S stock builds feature shunting controls before the main production run did not? Or perhaps they were dropped at a late stage before the first trains were delivered to LU?
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Sept 15, 2020 20:57:26 GMT
I seem to remember something about a cabinet where a control unit could be plugged in by technical staff.
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metman
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Post by metman on Sept 16, 2020 10:42:52 GMT
That’s seems like a good idea considering there are no actual car ends on an S stock.
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Post by t697 on Sept 16, 2020 11:30:36 GMT
As far as I recall, uncoupling of S stock was not a design option progressed in any way at all. A plug in controller would just be the tip of that iceberg. You'd need a shunter / T/Op operable uncoupling/coupling system including for the gangway connection, significant control and safety circuit changes and something to stop the operator falling out.
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Post by jimbo on Sept 16, 2020 20:38:06 GMT
I seem to remember something about a cabinet where a control unit could be plugged in by technical staff. That sounds like the sort of thing talked about for new cab-less Siemens tube trains, but fortunately the Picc build is now to have cabs. Splitting in two will be even more difficult than S stock, with alternate cars having no wheels to stand upon! Depots will have to find work arounds for that!
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Post by Chris M on Sept 17, 2020 12:53:35 GMT
I would hope that there was a solution for this designed in from the start. Wheeled car stands is my first thought.
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Post by johnlinford on Sept 17, 2020 18:43:38 GMT
How often are modern trains like the S stock split up in to individual cars?
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