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Post by tom73 on Sept 7, 2020 19:49:14 GMT
So the Bakerloo Line northbound operated two totally separate branches from Baker Street. One to Watford/Harrow & Wealdstone/Queens Park and the other to Stanmore/Wembley Park. As far as I know, it was the only deep level tube line with bifurcation more than 40-feet below surface streets. I have read that one of the reasons for the creation of the Jubilee Line was congestion at Baker Street but I don't really get how the renaming of one of the two northbound branches would have any relevance to the supposed congestion and southbound bifurcation to Green Park/Charing Cross working in tandem with the existing southbound line to Waterloo/Elephant & Castle would not have required a line name change. So how far back in time do the original plans for the extension of the new Fleet/Jubilee Line go. I understand that it was intended to extend southbound beyond Charing Cross to Aldwych and Fenchurch Street. Is there any book available dealing with this specific topic?
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Harsig
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Post by Harsig on Sept 7, 2020 20:17:21 GMT
So the Bakerloo Line northbound operated two totally separate branches from Baker Street. One to Watford/Harrow & Wealdstone/Queens Park .... I have read that one of the reasons for the creation of the Jubilee Line was congestion at Baker Street .. My understanding is that it wasn’t congestion at Baker St per se, rather it was congestion on the southern section of the line between Baker St and Elephant & Castle. Simply put, despite this section of line being run at maximum capacity the service levels on the two northern branches were inadequate for the traffic on offer. All trains from both branches had to run through on to the southern section of line so there was no scope to increase services on the two branches until the two branches were segregated into different lines.
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Post by John Tuthill on Sept 7, 2020 20:24:19 GMT
So the Bakerloo Line northbound operated two totally separate branches from Baker Street. One to Watford/Harrow & Wealdstone/Queens Park and the other to Stanmore/Wembley Park. As far as I know, it was the only deep level tube line with bifurcation more than 40-feet below surface streets. I have read that one of the reasons for the creation of the Jubilee Line was congestion at Baker Street but I don't really get how the renaming of one of the two northbound branches would have any relevance to the supposed congestion and southbound bifurcation to Green Park/Charing Cross working in tandem with the existing southbound line to Waterloo/Elephant & Castle would not have required a line name change. So how far back in time do the original plans for the extension of the new Fleet/Jubilee Line go. I understand that it was intended to extend southbound beyond Charing Cross to Aldwych and Fenchurch Street. Is there any book available dealing with this specific topic? How about the Northern Line at Kennington and Camden Town? Check out Wikapedia as a starting point.
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Post by goldenarrow on Sept 7, 2020 20:27:27 GMT
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Post by John Tuthill on Sept 7, 2020 21:49:21 GMT
That's a very informative read, thanks for posting it.
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Post by jimbo on Sept 7, 2020 22:34:10 GMT
From my recollections of the time, the Bakerloo was crush loaded between Charing Cross and Paddington. Also the narrow northbound platforms at Piccadilly and Oxford Circus were crowded in the evening peak with people waiting for the second train to get to their desired branch.
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Post by spsmiler on Sept 12, 2020 9:31:40 GMT
As far as existing Bakerloo line passengers are concerned it probably would have been much better if the Metropolitan's original plan for a deep level link between Edgware Road and the Kilburn area had been realised. This would have served new districts (including part of the A5 Edgware Road) that even now are unserved. The new line was scuppered because the Government introduced new 'emergency evacuation' regulations requiring that all trains which travel through deep level tube train tunnels can be walked through and have end doors - this being something that would have required the Met to replace many trains in its fleet, which at that time solely comprised slam door full-width compartment rolling stock. Had the London Transport Passenger Board (LTPB) built this link it could have used its brand new sliding door O or P stock trains on this route and perhaps dedicated the new link to trains serving Stanmore. Maybe the reason why the LTPB did not progress with this route is because it thought that there was insufficient track capacity east of Edgware Road? More about this can be read at this Wikipedia link en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgware_Road_Tube_schemes#Metropolitan_RailwayThe page also has a map, which can also be seen at this link en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Metropolitan_relief_line.svgThe map does not show it but there were going to be three intermediate stations - at Quex Road, Kilburn Park Road and Clifton Road
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Post by Dstock7080 on Sept 12, 2020 11:29:03 GMT
Had the London Transport Passenger Board (LTPB) built this link it could have used its brand new sliding door O or P stock trains on this route and perhaps dedicated the new link to trains serving Stanmore. Maybe the reason why the LTPB did not progress with this route is because it thought that there was insufficient track capacity east of Edgware Road? Was actually the LPTB London Passenger Transport Board London Passenger Transport Board
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Post by rapidtransitman on Sept 12, 2020 14:07:17 GMT
The new line was scuppered because the Government introduced new 'emergency evacuation' regulations requiring that all trains which travel through deep level tube train tunnels can be walked through and have end doors... Is this the same regulation that required a side walkway in all new Tube tunnels, ie for the Jubilee Line Extension? If so, what year was the Tube side walkway mandated? 1990s sometime but can't find the reference.
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Post by t697 on Sept 12, 2020 16:56:00 GMT
The new line was scuppered because the Government introduced new 'emergency evacuation' regulations requiring that all trains which travel through deep level tube train tunnels can be walked through and have end doors... Is this the same regulation that required a side walkway in all new Tube tunnels, ie for the Jubilee Line Extension? If so, what year was the Tube side walkway mandated? 1990s sometime but can't find the reference. I don't recall the JLE tunnel size and walkway being the result of legislation but I could be wrong. Also detrainment procedures still involve detrainment from the end of the train only, as far as I know.
The walkway could give the emergency services better access to anywhere along the train if they couldn't access the ends. And beyond the train, you wouldn't want to walk on the narrow walkway. Far better to walk in the four-foot, between the rails.
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Post by Chris M on Sept 12, 2020 18:16:38 GMT
During the emergency exercise prior to the opening of the DLR Stratford International extension we were evacuated from the train onto the side walkway rather than the four-foot. OK this was DLR, and all their tunnels have walkways, but I don't understand why you would build a walkway and not use it? Espcially as it's much easier and safer to walk on a smooth concrete path than along an uneven, crowded four-foot.
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Post by johnlinford on Sept 12, 2020 18:18:51 GMT
I believe the walkway in tunnels is a requirement - possibly it came from a Europe-wide review in to incidents in tunnels in the late 80s from a quick google (it mentions King's Cross as well as incidents in Europe. The DLR tunnels all feature it so it must have been mandated in time for the Bank extension which opened in '91. End doors on the trains for evacuation is obviously a lot earlier.
I agree that walking on the track would seem preferable to the walkway having seen the walkways on the DLR, although I'd rather have to do neither of these things.
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Post by spsmiler on Sept 12, 2020 18:31:49 GMT
Had the London Transport Passenger Board (LTPB) built this link it could have used its brand new sliding door O or P stock trains on this route and perhaps dedicated the new link to trains serving Stanmore. Maybe the reason why the LTPB did not progress with this route is because it thought that there was insufficient track capacity east of Edgware Road? Was actually the LPTB London Passenger Transport Board London Passenger Transport Boardoops, I stand corrected. Despite its name the policies of the new body suggest that was really a takeover by the UndergrounD train and motor bus 'Combine' of its former commercial competitors. btw, at the time of privatisation in the 1990's the Government was considering called London's new transport authority something like the London Regional Transport Authority with an abbreviation of LRTA. As a member of the Light Rail Transit Association I got to hear about this and that during the consultation process the Government was informed of the prior existence of a British organisation which is already known as the LRTA plus the likely confusion should it also be adopted in the way they were considering. Hence we ended up with TfL - Transport For London, which I think is also easier to say and write!
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Post by Chris L on Sept 12, 2020 21:42:01 GMT
oops, I stand corrected. Despite its name the policies of the new body suggest that was really a takeover by the UndergrounD train and motor bus 'Combine' of its former commercial competitors. btw, at the time of privatisation in the 1990's the Government was considering called London's new transport authority something like the London Regional Transport Authority with an abbreviation of LRTA. As a member of the Light Rail Transit Association I got to hear about this and that during the consultation process the Government was informed of the prior existence of a British organisation which is already known as the LRTA plus the likely confusion should it also be adopted in the way they were considering. Hence we ended up with TfL - Transport For London, which I think is also easier to say and write! London Regional Transport (LRT) was the organisation responsible for the public transport network in Greater London between 1984 and 2000. TfL followed it.
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Post by Chris M on Sept 12, 2020 23:04:59 GMT
The full chronology of pan-London public transport organisations is: London Passenger Transport Board (1933-1948) London Transport Executive (1948-1962) London Transport Board (1963-1969) London Transport Executive (GLC) (1970-1984) London Regional Transport (1984-2000) Transport for London (2000-present)
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Post by jimbo on Sept 13, 2020 3:23:39 GMT
The full chronology of pan-London public transport organisations is: London Passenger Transport Board (1933-1948) London Transport Executive (1948-1962) London Transport Board (1963-1969) London Transport Executive (GLC) (1970-1984) London Regional Transport (1984-2000) Transport for London (2000-present) So TfL governance has been the most long-running of all!
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Post by Dstock7080 on Sept 13, 2020 5:56:48 GMT
London Regional Transport (LRT) was the organisation responsible for the public transport network in Greater London between 1984 and 2000. TfL followed it. During the early years of LRT the Annual Reports* and other official documents usually stated “LRT, herewith referred to as ‘the Corporation’”. * - with the hideous non-Johnston, non-roundel logo, which thankfully was never applied to vehicles.
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Post by spsmiler on Sept 16, 2020 19:30:01 GMT
London Regional Transport (LRT) was the organisation responsible for the public transport network in Greater London between 1984 and 2000. TfL followed it. Hmm, it obviously made a great impression on me, as I do not remember it at all!
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