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Post by Tomcakes on Mar 26, 2020 10:25:36 GMT
POLITE STAFF REQUEST: NO CORONAVIRUS POSTS IN THIS THREAD PLEASE
Regarding the home-working - yes, I strongly suspect that when this calms down, there will be an increase in the number of non-essential staff in all industries who work from home, at least part of the time (perhaps going into central for one day per week). This would have significant impacts - for office development (not so much needed), housing needs (some areas may be more attractive if a difficult commute only needs to be done on an occasional basis rather than daily, and if people need space to work at home they may need a living room in their accommodation), local communities (more business for local shops in suburbs), as well as TfL (fewer passengers - probably not such a bad thing considering how many areas are creaking at the seams).
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Mar 26, 2020 11:00:49 GMT
Regarding the home-working - yes, I strongly suspect that when this calms down, there will be an increase in the number of non-essential staff in all industries who work from home, at least part of the time (perhaps going into central for one day per week). This would have significant impacts - for office development (not so much needed), housing needs (some areas may be more attractive if a difficult commute only needs to be done on an occasional basis rather than daily, and if people need space to work at home they may need a living room in their accommodation), local communities (more business for local shops in suburbs), as well as TfL (fewer passengers - probably not such a bad thing considering how many areas are creaking at the seams). Totally agree Tom, I've been harping on about this for years. Finally, it may dawn on businesses and others that the way forward isn't to continually chase the tail of an increasing population with transport improvements, that are almost negligible in impact by the time they're complete, but to encourage the elephant in the room, the excessive workforce, to complete their tasks at home or from satellite offices well away from the metropolis. It can be done and it'll make the city a much nicer place to be as well as taking the crippling strain away from the trains, buses and other modes. |
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Post by North End on Mar 26, 2020 14:14:25 GMT
Regarding the home-working - yes, I strongly suspect that when this calms down, there will be an increase in the number of non-essential staff in all industries who work from home, at least part of the time (perhaps going into central for one day per week). This would have significant impacts - for office development (not so much needed), housing needs (some areas may be more attractive if a difficult commute only needs to be done on an occasional basis rather than daily, and if people need space to work at home they may need a living room in their accommodation), local communities (more business for local shops in suburbs), as well as TfL (fewer passengers - probably not such a bad thing considering how many areas are creaking at the seams). Totally agree Tom, I've been harping on about this for years. Finally, it may dawn on businesses and others that the way forward isn't to continually chase the tail of an increasing population with transport improvements, that are almost negligible in impact by the time they're complete, but to encourage the elephant in the room, the excessive workforce, to complete their tasks at home or from satellite offices well away from the metropolis. It can be done and it'll make the city a much nicer place to be as well as taking the crippling strain away from the trains, buses and other modes. I think this idea that the homeworking genie being out of the bottle is a little premature. Speaking to a few people who have been working at home this week, most have complained of unexpected disturbances -- like lawns being mowed, children playing, wife at home, the bin lorry doing the rounds, et cetera. Meanwhile how many people have a facility in their homes set up for working, or even have the space to have that -- especially in areas where densification has prevailed like the south-east? In times past many houses used to have a room called the "study" where people worked in one form or another. How many homes still have that, or have space to have it? I still have such a room, but to be fair it's more set up for computer-based leisure activities than serious work. For some time I've been being told that I'm "out of date" for even having a desktop computer as opposed to a laptop! I suspect that when this is all over many will simply be glad to get back to their familiar old routine. The novelty will wear off. |
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Mar 26, 2020 17:01:45 GMT
Totally agree Tom, I've been harping on about this for years. Finally, it may dawn on businesses and others that the way forward isn't to continually chase the tail of an increasing population with transport improvements, that are almost negligible in impact by the time they're complete, but to encourage the elephant in the room, the excessive workforce, to complete their tasks at home or from satellite offices well away from the metropolis. It can be done and it'll make the city a much nicer place to be as well as taking the crippling strain away from the trains, buses and other modes. I think this idea that the homeworking genie being out of the bottle is a little premature. Speaking to a few people who have been working at home this week, most have complained of unexpected disturbances -- like lawns being mowed, children playing, wife at home, the bin lorry doing the rounds, et cetera. Meanwhile how many people have a facility in their homes set up for working, or even have the space to have that -- especially in areas where densification has prevailed like the south-east? In times past many houses used to have a room called the "study" where people worked in one form or another. How many homes still have that, or have space to have it? I still have such a room, but to be fair it's more set up for computer-based leisure activities than serious work. For some time I've been being told that I'm "out of date" for even having a desktop computer as opposed to a laptop! I suspect that when this is all over many will simply be glad to get back to their familiar old routine. The novelty will wear off. Hence my other suggestion for satellite offices. For those who are easily distracted (and I fully understand that for some it's a problem) going to an office locally or in an opposite direction to the city to a far less crowded environment would be a good move and save them quite large sums of money and time in the process. For an awful lot of businesses, an office is just an office at the end of the day, location being irrelevant. In the end it could allow businesses to completely relocate if it caught on. To those that have to go to the city using public transport systems, the benefits would also be considerable. |
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Post by North End on Mar 26, 2020 17:31:32 GMT
I think this idea that the homeworking genie being out of the bottle is a little premature. Speaking to a few people who have been working at home this week, most have complained of unexpected disturbances -- like lawns being mowed, children playing, wife at home, the bin lorry doing the rounds, et cetera. Meanwhile how many people have a facility in their homes set up for working, or even have the space to have that -- especially in areas where densification has prevailed like the south-east? In times past many houses used to have a room called the "study" where people worked in one form or another. How many homes still have that, or have space to have it? I still have such a room, but to be fair it's more set up for computer-based leisure activities than serious work. For some time I've been being told that I'm "out of date" for even having a desktop computer as opposed to a laptop! I suspect that when this is all over many will simply be glad to get back to their familiar old routine. The novelty will wear off. Hence my other suggestion for satellite offices. For those who are easily distracted (and I fully understand that for some it's a problem) going to an office locally or in an opposite direction to the city to a far less crowded environment would be a good move and save them quite large sums of money and time in the process. For an awful lot of businesses, an office is just an office at the end of the day, location being irrelevant. In the end it could allow businesses to completely relocate if it caught on. To those that have to go to the city using public transport systems, the benefits would also be considerable. This wouldn't be anything that hasn't already been happening - the last decade has seen a massive growth in local and contra-peak commuting in certain areas. For many the reality would be choosing between a commute to London by train, or spend an hour sitting in traffic on something like the A1(M) and/or on gridlocked roads surrounding commercial parks. Somewhere like Welwyn Garden City is now pretty gridlocked (not congested but gridlocked) at certain times of day due to business parks, which 20 years ago would have been unheard of. Likewise try catching a contra-peak train to somewhere like Cambridge, Guildford or Crawley - chances are it'll be almost as crowded as those heading in to London, albeit the peak being more confined to the traditional rush *hour* rather than for several hours like the London peak. |
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Post by theblackferret on Mar 26, 2020 18:33:50 GMT
The problem with suggesting effective relocation from the Central area is twofold:
1) It goes against the current London/Central government thinking regarding London's population growth-that of course might just be under review after all this, to be fair.
2) It was already tried in the 15-20 years after WWII, vide Crawley,Harlow & other new towns as well, so you're at least one & a half generations removed from the workers who started their careers along those lines.
Not that it wouldn't be a rattling good idea, especially if a complete reboot of C21 life is effected by people's attitudes after this. I won't take it any further down the line, otherwise I'll stray off-course, but I wonder, once we emerge from restrictions, from a LUL perspective what level of off-peak service will be needed ie will the tourist levels recover for a start?
Most importantly, for you lot running the services, I sincerely wish you one train after another with only passengers aboard that have thought before travelling.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Mar 26, 2020 18:55:10 GMT
Hence my other suggestion for satellite offices. For those who are easily distracted (and I fully understand that for some it's a problem) going to an office locally or in an opposite direction to the city to a far less crowded environment would be a good move and save them quite large sums of money and time in the process. For an awful lot of businesses, an office is just an office at the end of the day, location being irrelevant. In the end it could allow businesses to completely relocate if it caught on. To those that have to go to the city using public transport systems, the benefits would also be considerable. This wouldn't be anything that hasn't already been happening - the last decade has seen a massive growth in local and contra-peak commuting in certain areas. For many the reality would be choosing between a commute to London by train, or spend an hour sitting in traffic on something like the A1(M) and/or on gridlocked roads surrounding commercial parks. Somewhere like Welwyn Garden City is now pretty gridlocked (not congested but gridlocked) at certain times of day due to business parks, which 20 years ago would have been unheard of. Likewise try catching a contra-peak train to somewhere like Cambridge, Guildford or Crawley - chances are it'll be almost as crowded as those heading in to London, albeit the peak being more confined to the traditional rush *hour* rather than for several hours like the London peak. I'm not suggesting they go that far away from home. In answer to what you reported, I suggested those unable to work from home due to distraction could make use of local or near local office blocks. That way they'd still be 'going to work' as the people you spoke to said they preferred, but without entering the city and in a lot of cases with no need to use a car either. Those capable of concentrating at home would not have to go anywhere at all. theblackferret , I don't think the fact that a similar idea tried 60 years ago unsuccessfully in a radically different work environment lacking computers, internet or easily accessible databases bears much comparison to be honest, and like you say I suspect there will be a growing re-evaluation of how we conduct our lives and our transport to and from work after this. It could mean that money earmarked for even greater and more complex transport projects in London, once this current crisis has been paid for, becomes available to improve other parts of the country instead. This is the impact I believe it will have but as with anything, we can but speculate and history will be the judge.  |
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Post by North End on Mar 26, 2020 21:00:47 GMT
This wouldn't be anything that hasn't already been happening - the last decade has seen a massive growth in local and contra-peak commuting in certain areas. For many the reality would be choosing between a commute to London by train, or spend an hour sitting in traffic on something like the A1(M) and/or on gridlocked roads surrounding commercial parks. Somewhere like Welwyn Garden City is now pretty gridlocked (not congested but gridlocked) at certain times of day due to business parks, which 20 years ago would have been unheard of. Likewise try catching a contra-peak train to somewhere like Cambridge, Guildford or Crawley - chances are it'll be almost as crowded as those heading in to London, albeit the peak being more confined to the traditional rush *hour* rather than for several hours like the London peak. I'm not suggesting they go that far away from home. In answer to what you reported, I suggested those unable to work from home due to distraction could make use of local or near local office blocks. That way they'd still be 'going to work' as the people you spoke to said they preferred, but without entering the city and in a lot of cases with no need to use a car either. Those capable of concentrating at home would not have to go anywhere at all. theblackferret , I don't think the fact that a similar idea tried 60 years ago unsuccessfully in a radically different work environment lacking computers, internet or easily accessible databases bears much comparison to be honest, and like you say I suspect there will be a growing re-evaluation of how we conduct our lives and our transport to and from work after this. It could mean that money earmarked for even greater and more complex transport projects in London, once this current crisis has been paid for, becomes available to improve other parts of the country instead. This is the impact I believe it will have but as with anything, we can but speculate and history will be the judge. I don’t doubt there will be some level of change arising from this, however particularly with a recession now highly likely simply due to the reduction in money flowing round the economy, I don’t think this change will be anything like as significant as some are speculating. There’s already been an element of shift over time, and it may go one of two ways - either it continues, or else it comes to a natural stop at the point where businesses and employees feel it has gone as far as it can. As I said before, many will be quite happy just to return to a job at the end of this. There’s also an element of the grass being greener syndrome, until people find there’s negatives associated with the change. I’m sure there will be a reduction in some rail demand simply off the back of recession, and I suspect there will be a malaise towards if not a more stronger pressure against densification, now people have had a taste of how vulnerable we all actually are. Just my thoughts... |
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 26, 2020 23:19:10 GMT
I think this idea that the homeworking genie being out of the bottle is a little premature. Speaking to a few people who have been working at home this week, most have complained of unexpected disturbances -- like lawns being mowed, children playing, wife at home, the bin lorry doing the rounds, et cetera. Meanwhile how many people have a facility in their homes set up for working, or even have the space to have that -- especially in areas where densification has prevailed like the south-east? In times past many houses used to have a room called the "study" where people worked in one form or another. How many homes still have that, or have space to have it? I still have such a room, but to be fair it's more set up for computer-based leisure activities than serious work. For some time I've been being told that I'm "out of date" for even having a desktop computer as opposed to a laptop! I suspect that when this is all over many will simply be glad to get back to their familiar old routine. The novelty will wear off. I agree. Also worth factoring in is the financial cost - lights, computers etc and in the winter the need to heat their homes all day. Although there will be savings from less travel these may not be worthwhile if passengers are paying 'single journey' fares - instead of buying season tickets. Maybe though some transport operators will offer different types of season tickets, such the ability to buy a dozen days of travel (ie: 12 tokens each of which can be used on any one day over the next month) at a rate cheaper than paying daily fares. |
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Post by Chris M on Mar 27, 2020 0:56:02 GMT
Although there will be savings from less travel these may not be worthwhile if passengers are paying 'single journey' fares - instead of buying season tickets. Maybe though some transport operators will offer different types of season tickets, such the ability to buy a dozen days of travel (ie: 12 tokens each of which can be used on any one day over the next month) at a rate cheaper than paying daily fares. Great Northern and Thameslink (at least) offer carnet tickets that do just this - 10 single tickets for the price of 9. www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/prb225ca2e6e40ef93d44bccd007b205.aspxI know there used to be "carnet validators" at some Zone 1 stations (I recall seeing signs at Farringdon and either Old Street or Moorgate) but I don't know if this was for LU or National Rail tickets. These days it's also plausible that such a discount could be incorporated into a fare capping system. I realise we're getting off topic here, but perhaps a mod will consider splitting these posts into a new thread? |
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Post by stapler on Mar 27, 2020 8:10:18 GMT
For the split thread:
The annual ritual of renewing my annual season was part of my marking down the years to retirement! But in fact the season ticket as an idea must be getting near the end of its primacy, if not natural life. Some people converted to PAYG, Oyster or contactless, because they could save much more than the ST discount if even a small proportion of their journeys were off peak. A commuter who lives eg at Writtle and commutes from Chelmsford to Holborn might have an outlay of £7000 on a NR ST and car park ST. I know one who drives the 19 miles/30 mins to Debden, parks for free on street, and travels up before 0630 and returns departing at 1550, because that's what her work facilitates. £6.20 a day on PAYG plus petrol money; say for 220 days, less than £2500
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Post by superteacher on Mar 27, 2020 11:19:47 GMT
In case anyone hasn't read the first post, this thread is not to be used to discuss the Coronavirus outbreak. After a member kindly requested it, we have split the threads so that this one can be used to discuss the topic of working from home. Please use the other thread to discuss the implications of Coronavirus on the Underground. Thanks all.
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 27, 2020 12:36:04 GMT
When I was working at Whipps Cross Hospital I bought Travelcards because I needed to travel by both underground train and bus and it was cheaper than PAYG. Plus I could use the Travelcard at the weekend - for 'free'.
But I have encountered times when paying daily return fares were cheaper than season tickets - eg: working at Chelmsford and commuting from Ilford. This was because I was travelling in the opposite direction of the peak flow and away from London. I always bough my tickets for 'tomorrow' in the evening before, as it saved much time the next morning. (or on Friday for Monday).
Io reply to Chris M re: Carnet tickets, I recall these as being LU Zone 1 tickets where something like 10 were purchased at a time and they had to be validated before use. They were ideal - not just for part-time workers but also for interchanging from BR to LT trains at stations where you were already inside the 'fares paid zone', as otherwise you might have had to visit a ticket office for part of the journey.* The idea was copied from Paris, France. I never bought them as they did not meet my travel needs.
*Nowadays stations have oyster card readers on the platforms for this purpose.
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Post by class411 on Mar 27, 2020 14:20:35 GMT
When I was working at Whipps Cross Hospital I bought Travelcards because I needed to travel by both underground train and bus and it was cheaper than PAYG. Plus I could use the Travelcard at the weekend - for 'free'. But I have encountered times when paying daily return fares were cheaper than season tickets - eg: working at Chelmsford and commuting from Ilford. This was because I was travelling in the opposite direction of the peak flow and away from London. I always bough my tickets for 'tomorrow' in the evening before, as it saved much time the next morning. (or on Friday for Monday). Io reply to Chris M re: Carnet tickets, I recall these as being LU Zone 1 tickets where something like 10 were purchased at a time and they had to be validated before use. They were ideal - not just for part-time workers but also for interchanging from BR to LT trains at stations where you were already inside the 'fares paid zone', as otherwise you might have had to visit a ticket office for part of the journey.* The idea was copied from Paris, France. I never bought them as they did not meet my travel needs. *Nowadays stations have oyster card readers on the platforms for this purpose. SP, I think the vast majority of members of this forum are intelligent and well educated enough to know where Paris is located. Most of the European undergrounds I have used use this system, but they mainly have a single fare (or allow for longer journeys by requiring that you purchase a ticket of longer duration.) I've often wondered what happens if there is a hold-up, not of your own making, that takes you over the period of your ticket's validity. |
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Post by superteacher on Mar 27, 2020 14:25:02 GMT
When I was working at Whipps Cross Hospital I bought Travelcards because I needed to travel by both underground train and bus and it was cheaper than PAYG. Plus I could use the Travelcard at the weekend - for 'free'. But I have encountered times when paying daily return fares were cheaper than season tickets - eg: working at Chelmsford and commuting from Ilford. This was because I was travelling in the opposite direction of the peak flow and away from London. I always bough my tickets for 'tomorrow' in the evening before, as it saved much time the next morning. (or on Friday for Monday). Io reply to Chris M re: Carnet tickets, I recall these as being LU Zone 1 tickets where something like 10 were purchased at a time and they had to be validated before use. They were ideal - not just for part-time workers but also for interchanging from BR to LT trains at stations where you were already inside the 'fares paid zone', as otherwise you might have had to visit a ticket office for part of the journey.* The idea was copied from Paris, France. I never bought them as they did not meet my travel needs. *Nowadays stations have oyster card readers on the platforms for this purpose. SP, I think the vast majority of members of this forum are intelligent and well educated enough to know where Paris is located. Most of the European undergrounds I have used use this system, but they mainly have a single fare (or allow for longer journeys by requiring that you purchase a ticket of longer duration.) I've often wondered what happens if there is a hold-up, not of your own making, that takes you over the period of your ticket's validity. Nothing wrong with a bit of disambiguity: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris,_Texas |
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Post by class411 on Mar 27, 2020 15:19:55 GMT
SP, I think the vast majority of members of this forum are intelligent and well educated enough to know where Paris is located. Most of the European undergrounds I have used use this system, but they mainly have a single fare (or allow for longer journeys by requiring that you purchase a ticket of longer duration.) I've often wondered what happens if there is a hold-up, not of your own making, that takes you over the period of your ticket's validity. Nothing wrong with a bit of disambiguity: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris,_Texas Indeed there is a Paris in Texas, and they made quite a good film, set there. However, it does not have an underground railway system or any sort of metro transport system. Why, I don't believe it even has a railway train station. We're very lucky here in London, England. |
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Mar 27, 2020 15:57:51 GMT
Indeed there is a Paris in Texas, and they made quite a good film, set there. However, it does not have an underground railway system or any sort of metro transport system. Why, I don't believe it even has a railway train station. We're very lucky here in London, England.
Try and avoid doing it eh? |
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Post by 35b on Mar 27, 2020 17:18:37 GMT
Regarding the home-working - yes, I strongly suspect that when this calms down, there will be an increase in the number of non-essential staff in all industries who work from home, at least part of the time (perhaps going into central for one day per week). This would have significant impacts - for office development (not so much needed), housing needs (some areas may be more attractive if a difficult commute only needs to be done on an occasional basis rather than daily, and if people need space to work at home they may need a living room in their accommodation), local communities (more business for local shops in suburbs), as well as TfL (fewer passengers - probably not such a bad thing considering how many areas are creaking at the seams). Totally agree Tom, I've been harping on about this for years. Finally, it may dawn on businesses and others that the way forward isn't to continually chase the tail of an increasing population with transport improvements, that are almost negligible in impact by the time they're complete, but to encourage the elephant in the room, the excessive workforce, to complete their tasks at home or from satellite offices well away from the metropolis. It can be done and it'll make the city a much nicer place to be as well as taking the crippling strain away from the trains, buses and other modes. I think you under-estimate the factors that drive companies to set up offices in city centres. Thinking of my own employer, the office is both a place where people work when not at client sites (or working from home), but also a place where teams can gather and interact, and where clients visit. Where we have suburban offices (which it does, albeit not in Greater London), they still reflect where there is a virtue in centralisation of teams, perhaps geographically, or perhaps for focus on particular clients. Even allowing for a distinction between a variety of different kinds of work, those factors will remain for many companies and drive the location of their offices. The idea of having more, but smaller, sites scattered around to mitigate travel demand would both be very expensive (economies of scale are material), and also miss the purpose of why staff congregate. As someone already well used to home working 2-3 days per week, I'm well able to cope with this prolonged period (though my wife does grumble about my taking over the study!). But I know that, once travel is again practical, I will be glad to congregate with colleagues in the office, even at the cost of travelling in London's rush hour. |
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Mar 27, 2020 18:21:19 GMT
I can see a time where it will become almost impossible for everybody to get into London to do their jobs. It may well be more affordable for government to offer low rate satellite offices than it will the constant drain on resources trying to play transport catch up with the numbers and the other costs associated with severe overcrowding.
I appreciate what you say about staff meetings and so forth but the younger generation seem far more at ease with remote conferencing than their older counterparts and this will play its part. If the balances can be achieved, and I think with a bit of creative thinking they can, it would provide a far less rammed environment, a better home/work balance and a saving in time off due to travel stress. If it doesn’t happen, then it won’t affect me but my daughter has said that her company are already talking about reducing commutes to one per week as it’s all largely computer based.
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Post by 35b on Mar 27, 2020 18:43:31 GMT
I can see a time where it will become almost impossible for everybody to get into London to do their jobs. It may well be more affordable for government to offer low rate satellite offices than it will the constant drain on resources trying to play transport catch up with the numbers and the other costs associated with severe overcrowding. I appreciate what you say about staff meetings and so forth but the younger generation seem far more at ease with remote conferencing than their older counterparts and this will play its part. If the balances can be achieved, and I think with a bit of creative thinking they can, it would provide a far less rammed environment, a better home/work balance and a saving in time off due to travel stress. If it doesn’t happen, then it won’t affect me but my daughter has said that her company are already talking about reducing commutes to one per week as it’s all largely computer based. I work in a business that is computer based, and where the amount of office accommodation has fallen dramatically in my 20 odd years with the firm as remote working has become more and more feasible. I won’t be surprised if other firms, less far down that path, develop on similar paths. But my practical experience, of colleagues of all ages, is that there is an irreducible minimum that is needed. Indeed, the division most able to work remotely have a very strong culture of always being in the office on a Friday precisely so that they can build identity having worked remotely all week. That will reduce travel levels, but I would be very surprised if they even fell to “only” the levels of when I started my working life in the late 1990s. |
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Post by rheostar on Mar 27, 2020 22:41:42 GMT
My brother's been working at home for the past couple of weeks. He said that with his laptop and mobile phone, there wasn't much he couldn't do in regards to his job. The only thing he's really missed is going for a pint after work!
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Post by cso on Mar 27, 2020 22:55:54 GMT
I’ve worked from home permanently before and have been for nearly 3 weeks now... there’s nothing I can’t do from home (apart from when one of the VPNs ends up with new IPs!) that I can’t do in the office - but we are all noticing that the ability to just wander to someone’s desk is a bit of a pain... The only thing missing is interacting with people directly!
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Post by Chris M on Mar 27, 2020 23:28:00 GMT
My partner is also working from home at the moment, and she says she's only able to do about a third of what she would normally be able to do.
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Post by MoreToJack on Mar 27, 2020 23:47:32 GMT
I can't work from home!
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Post by AndrewPSSP on Mar 28, 2020 0:14:13 GMT
The BBC have largely consolidated their domestic and international news operations, which has led to some people speculating that, if this way of operating is deemed "successful" in providing a good service, the Beeb may choose to keep this as a permanent fixture which could lead to a loss of jobs. Are there any other firms operating like this?
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