Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Mar 18, 2020 13:08:35 GMT
From the coronavirus thread: Cancelling the Newbury Park - White City would be easy because there aren't any, none of the trains follow the same route all day. This got me wondering if there is anywhere (public) that identifies what services each train is scheduled to operate each day (e.g. Hainault Depot-Haianult-Ealing Broadway-Hainault-White City-Epping-West Ruislip-Epping-North Acton-Hainault-Hainault Depot)? Obviously this can be worked out by going through the working timetables, but is there anywhere this is already done? The rolling stock workings section of the working timetable only notes the start and end points, not the complete itinerary? |
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Mar 18, 2020 13:12:32 GMT
From the coronavirus thread: Cancelling the Newbury Park - White City would be easy because there aren't any, none of the trains follow the same route all day. This got me wondering if there is anywhere (public) that identifies what services each train is scheduled to operate each day (e.g. Hainault Depot-Haianult-Ealing Broadway-Hainault-White City-Epping-West Ruislip-Epping-North Acton-Hainault-Hainault Depot)? Obviously this can be worked out by going through the working timetables, but is there anywhere this is already done? The rolling stock workings section of the working timetable only notes the start and end points, not the complete itinerary? I don’t think there’s anything in the public domain. Internally there’s a document called the TDA (Train & Duty Analysis) which lists what every train does complete with which duty is in charge of it at a given time. I think your only bet is to go through the timetable. On some lines the train numbering is reflective of what the train does, to at least some extent. For example on the Northern numbering is based around the four separate service groups which operate during the midday period, with peak extras being numbered according to where they stable between the peaks. |
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Post by MoreToJack on Mar 18, 2020 21:16:35 GMT
It differs from line to line. Some are nice and simple, some really aren’t. Off peak there is a pattern, but during the peak it gets disrupted. The former are listed in the WTTs under Train Numbering or similar, but for peak stuff you’d need to go through trains individually.
One exception to the above is the CnH which uses the same numbering all day long, bar one train which moves from Circles to H&Cs after the peak.
Remembering that LU numbering doesn’t use 8s or 9s, some example, continuous sequences from my parts of the world:
*200-217 - Circles (213 becomes a H&C after the peak)
*261-277 - H&C
*171 - Upminster/Hammersmith changeover train (peaks only)
*172 - Ealing/Hammersmith changeover train (peaks only)
*175 - Edgware Road changeover train (one Circle at CoT)
*401-413 - Amersham/Chesham-Aldgate
*421-427 - Watford-Baker
*430-451 - Uxbridge-Aldgate
*460-474 - Neasden inter peak stablers
Aside from the changeover/inter peak stabling trains, the above numbers could start/finish at any depot or sidings.
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Mar 18, 2020 21:24:31 GMT
It differs from line to line. Some are nice and simple, some really aren’t. Off peak there is a pattern, but during the peak it gets disrupted. The former are listed in the WTTs under Train Numbering or similar, but for peak stuff you’d need to go through trains individually. One exception to the above is the CnH which uses the same numbering all day long, bar one train which moves from Circles to H&Cs after the peak. Remembering that LU numbering doesn’t use 8s or 9s, some example, continuous sequences from my parts of the world: *200-217 - Circles (213 becomes a H&C after the peak) *261-277 - H&C *171 - Upminster/Hammersmith changeover train (peaks only) *172 - Ealing/Hammersmith changeover train (peaks only) *175 - Edgware Road changeover train (one Circle at CoT) *401-413 - Amersham/Chesham-Aldgate *421-427 - Watford-Baker *430-451 - Uxbridge-Aldgate *460-474 - Neasden inter peak stablers Aside from the changeover/inter peak stabling trains, the above numbers could start/finish at any depot or sidings. An interesting subject as to how things have developed in this way. I’ve always presumed that it gives controllers the best chance of putting things right after the morning peak, and for getting those crucial post-AM-peak stablers back (depots do a *lot* of work during the midday, for most depots the mid afternoon is one of the next hectic periods). From a service control perspective it really does make a difference to be able to get things back in time for the evening peak, and having consistent numbering makes this a lot easier for example when spotting reform opportunities without needing to refer to the timetable. I’m guessing this method of numbering has simply evolved over time in response to what control staff have highlighted is best practice. |
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Post by MoreToJack on Mar 18, 2020 22:00:57 GMT
Yes, absolutely.
To take the Met as an example, as it comes to the end of the morning peak one of the first things looked at is what all day trains are cancelled and is it possible to reform any inter peak stablers onto them. A significantly easier way of getting trains running than putting one away to bring one straight back out. Doesn’t always work, but it saves a lot of hassle.
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
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Post by North End on Mar 18, 2020 22:08:26 GMT
Yes, absolutely. To take the Met as an example, as it comes to the end of the morning peak one of the first things looked at is what all day trains are cancelled and is it possible to reform any inter peak stablers onto them. A significantly easier way of getting trains running than putting one away to bring one straight back out. Doesn’t always work, but it saves a lot of hassle. It always amuses me how some control staff will watch a slightly late running or out-of-turn train run about all afternoon and do nothing, then wonder why they have a nasty gap at a key location right in the middle of the evening peak! The early afternoon is a key time to focus on getting things “on book” for the evening peak, and the way the WTT is composed would seem to support this. I’ve always taken the view it’s worth taking some hits in the early afternoon in order to avoid bigger problems later on. |
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Post by countryman on Mar 19, 2020 7:41:49 GMT
It differs from line to line. Some are nice and simple, some really aren’t. Off peak there is a pattern, but during the peak it gets disrupted. The former are listed in the WTTs under Train Numbering or similar, but for peak stuff you’d need to go through trains individually. One exception to the above is the CnH which uses the same numbering all day long, bar one train which moves from Circles to H&Cs after the peak. Remembering that LU numbering doesn’t use 8s or 9s, some example, continuous sequences from my parts of the world: *200-217 - Circles (213 becomes a H&C after the peak) *261-277 - H&C *171 - Upminster/Hammersmith changeover train (peaks only) *172 - Ealing/Hammersmith changeover train (peaks only) *175 - Edgware Road changeover train (one Circle at CoT) *401-413 - Amersham/Chesham-Aldgate *421-427 - Watford-Baker *430-451 - Uxbridge-Aldgate *460-474 - Neasden inter peak stablers Aside from the changeover/inter peak stabling trains, the above numbers could start/finish at any depot or sidings. I understand what an inter-peak stabler is, but I'm not sure about a changeover train. Could some kind person please clarify? |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Mar 19, 2020 8:18:45 GMT
I understand what an inter-peak stabler is, but I'm not sure about a changeover train. Could some kind person please clarify? strategically placed ‘hot spare’ empty train with no driver |
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Mar 19, 2020 9:12:44 GMT
I understand what an inter-peak stabler is, but I'm not sure about a changeover train. Could some kind person please clarify? strategically placed ‘hot spare’ empty train with no driver Do they still have a spare on 51rd at Upminster station ? |
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Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
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Post by Colin on Mar 19, 2020 13:00:22 GMT
Do they still have a spare on 51rd at Upminster station ? We do sometimes but this is an ad hoc arrangement rather than a timetabled one. It might be that the train is removed for one round trip due to no driver being available, or perhaps a spare has been brought out of the depot in anticipation of a dud that we know is coming our way.......or maybe an interpeak stabler is being held back from the depot, again in anticipation of a dud that we know is coming our way. Another reason for putting a train there is that the depot is under possesion - so we nick one before the depot is closed off to us and then we can at least swap a dud one over even though the depot is unavailable. |
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Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,346
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Post by Colin on Mar 19, 2020 13:21:13 GMT
Seperate post to show how the District line set numbering works.
As with other lines, at the start of the day trains originate from various locations around the line and randomly start up on various service patterns (when I say randomly, there is a plan but the train set numbering bears no resemblance).
After the Monday to Friday peak has finished, and all day at the weekends, the off peak pattern settles to become:
001 - 024 Upminster / Richmond
025 - 050 Upminster /Ealing
051 - 056 Tower Hill / Wimbledon
060 - 067 Barking / Wimbledon
070 - 077 Edgware Road / Wimbledon
**LU does not use 8's or 9's**
Once the Monday to Friday evening peaks start, the train set numbering system almost gets abandoned again as trains again operate to differing destinations that don't match their set numbers.
Monday to Friday peak extra's are numbered:
101 - 107 Upminster inter peak stablers
110 Upminster evening peak starter
121 - 126 Ealing Common inter peak stablers
The Olympia weekend service is numbered:
113 - 114 High Street Kensington / Olympia
Finally there are some overnight outstablers that originate from Upminster:
115 High Street Kensington overnight outstabler
116 Upminster overnight outstabler
117 Richmond overnight outstabler
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On a more general point, engineers trains across the network are numbered in the 600 series and empty passenger stock moves are usually numbered in the 700 series.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2020 14:48:30 GMT
Tamping machines / cranes usually 5** numbered
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Post by notverydeep on Mar 20, 2020 7:00:23 GMT
TfL publishes timetable data as part of its open data feeds. This is what third party software developers use to create their own 'journey planner' like services. The link to the actual files is: timetables.data.tfl.gov.uk/. These files will include the set working numbers and associated timings and location codes from which the full 'diagrams' (to use the National Rail term) of each physical trains workings during each day could be worked out. You may need moderate Excel skill to do this however... |
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Post by kateyay on Mar 29, 2020 17:27:26 GMT
It differs from line to line. Some are nice and simple, some really aren’t. Off peak there is a pattern, but during the peak it gets disrupted. The former are listed in the WTTs under Train Numbering or similar, but for peak stuff you’d need to go through trains individually. One exception to the above is the CnH which uses the same numbering all day long, bar one train which moves from Circles to H&Cs after the peak. Remembering that LU numbering doesn’t use 8s or 9s, some example, continuous sequences from my parts of the world: *200-217 - Circles (213 becomes a H&C after the peak) *261-277 - H&C *171 - Upminster/Hammersmith changeover train (peaks only) *172 - Ealing/Hammersmith changeover train (peaks only) *175 - Edgware Road changeover train (one Circle at CoT) *401-413 - Amersham/Chesham-Aldgate *421-427 - Watford-Baker *430-451 - Uxbridge-Aldgate *460-474 - Neasden inter peak stablers Aside from the changeover/inter peak stabling trains, the above numbers could start/finish at any depot or sidings. I understand what an inter-peak stabler is, but I'm not sure about a changeover train. Could some kind person please clarify? At various locations on the network, trains are stabled away from full stabling facilities like a depot or sidings. LU has a 24 hour prep rule meaning that once a train has been prepared for service, that is only good for 24 hours of service before another prep is required. Trains that are stabled away from a depot or sidings where maintenance and prep can take place (for example, Edgware Road 26 siding, or Watford platform and so on) will need to be changed over to ensure that the 24 hour prep is still valid. For this reason train 175 will begin its working at Hammersmith, late in the evening (usually around 23:00 depending on the TTN or WTT in place) then stable at Edgware Road siding towards close of traffic. As it was only prepared for service around 22:00 the night before, it will be fine to run for another 24 hours from then without another prep, so can stable in Edgware Road siding and start up again in the morning (as a differently numbered train) and run through to the early evening the next day. Edited to add: There are also various paths on the C&H, District and Met which run to change trains between depots and sidings, as the C&H cannot accommodate all the trains it needs for service on its own line. These changeover paths (for example, Hammersmith Sidings to Upminster depot, or Neasden Depot to Hammersmith Sidings) can also be known as changeover trains, as they change over stock between the depots. |
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Post by d7666 on Mar 31, 2020 13:46:33 GMT
It is possible to easily pick out rolling stock workings (main line "diagrams") with a little Excel manipulation from the raw ASCII csv [comma seperated variable) computer signalling control system timetable files. Not in the public domain of course, and never will be. I actually have had to do this 4-5 times now over the past dozen or so years - reverse engineering the ASCII file to prove faults such as invalid data. Or, to prove (yes really) that moving faults aren't actually due to static trackside kit but moving trains not obvious from tools like trackernet replay. The Excel manipulation is actually quite simple itself but needs a high spec pc as the resultant XLSX file is massive.
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Cancelling the Newbury Park - White City would be easy because there aren't any, none of the trains follow the same route all day.
