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Post by theangel on Feb 1, 2020 0:32:31 GMT
Just some more things I've wondered about. Feel free to ignore any or all.
I know Hammersmith was resited to the south to make room for Hammersmith (Grove Road) which didn't turn out to be the most successful station ever but it's quite difficult finding out information about the original station and some resources don't list it as a resited station at all. Was the new station built partly on the same site as the old station? Or was it more in line with the sheds where the trains are stabled?
My question about Westbourne Park is similar, also resited due to another station which has since closed though the main line station at Westbourne Park lasted a good 70 years longer then Grove Road. I'm not sure where the original Westbourne Park is either. Are there any signs of the station's location at all such as widened areas for platforms?
I remember travelling from Paddington to Cardiff Central maybe 10 years ago and looking out for the Hammersmith & City Line stations. I saw Royal Oak but didn't see Westbourne Park even though it used to have main line platforms till 1992. I now realise this was because of the dive-under between Royal Oak and Westbourne Park. Are there still main line trains running alongside Westbourne Park? Are there any rules for which trains go past Westbourne Park and which don't? Are trains ever diverted one way or the other?
I read that Royal Oak once had three platform faces and was served by Great Western trains as well as Hammersmith & City (or rather Metropolitan as it was then). It sounded like the third platform was facing away from the rest of the station but it had to be removed when the drive-under was constructed. Does anyone know if the Great Western trains only used this platform or if they used the two remaining platforms too?
Yet another station I'm not sure about the location of is the original Farringdon Street. It sounds like it was on the same or a similar site but the track curved to the west which was no use for an eastern extension.
Is the platform which was used for terminating Metropolitan Railway services at Liverpool Street still there? I know that part of the station will be part of Crossrail but I wonder if they'll use the platform or if they'll redevelop the area.
This isn't so much a question. The first part of the Underground was opened by the Metropolitan Railway, the forerunner of the Metropolitan Line. The descriptions usually make a point of saying the line started in the Hammersmith & City platforms at Paddington but implies that the line otherwise followed the route of the Metropolitan Line today. But it doesn't - the current Metropolitan Line doesn't call at Edgware Road and although it does call at Baker Street, I believe trains can only use the Baker Street East platforms. So would it be correct to say the first Underground line, although opened by the Metropolitan Railway, followed the route of today's Circle and Hammersmith & City Lines between Paddington and Farringdon? (Even though that's not completely true because of Farringdon Street.)
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Post by crusty54 on Feb 1, 2020 3:25:19 GMT
Main line trains do pass close by at Westbourne Park but there is a wall that obscures the H&C platforms. Indeed the tray roundels that used to be on the platform wall were earthed.
The bay road area at Liverpool Street is still there behind white cladding.
The open area at the western end is now occupied by a ventilation shaft for the Crossrail platforms which are a considerable depth below. There is also another new building nearby.
A point of interest is that there used to be a link on the eastbound track to the main line which ran across the concourse. The space can be seen by the old signal box.
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Post by theangel on Feb 1, 2020 4:13:11 GMT
Thanks for replying. So I probably saw the wall and thought I was on the very edge of the GWR lines rather than thinking a station could be behind the wall. I probably saw as much as it was possible to see. Plus Royal Oak, Ealing Broadway and (I think) East Acton.
It must be really interesting going back to the Crossrail stations and watching them all develop. Though it would be even better to ride on it!
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Post by crusty54 on Feb 1, 2020 7:35:07 GMT
The below ground Crossrail stations are much larger than anything else you will have experienced. The Liverpool Street platforms are 10 levels down with equipment rooms and ventilation equipment on the individual landings. They will be accessed by escalators and lifts. Some are incline lifts next to the escalators.
I think you will have spotted Acton Main Line station rather than East Acton.This already has a TfL Rail service and will be part of Crossrail.
The open air stations are all getting step free access with some new footbridges and some need platform extensions.
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Post by superteacher on Feb 1, 2020 8:19:26 GMT
MOD COMMENT:
These are very interesting questions theangel, but for future reference it’s much more useful to create specific threads for separate questions. That way, it’s much easier to find threads after a period of time. We want information to be accessible as easily as possible.
However, do keep asking as that’s what we are here for! 😋
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Post by stapler on Feb 1, 2020 8:41:57 GMT
The line up to the GER didn't exactly cross the concourse. The concourse effectively ended at platform 2. It (the met curve) was in a tunnel that emerged as platforms 1 and 2. Originally,no 1 could be accessed only by the footbridge. I remember it only as a staff canteen and store, the track having been removed many decades before.
The concourse did a bit of a dog-leg around the engine stubs. No1 was always a bit of a nuisance to get off in the morning peak, as a thousand passengers off a 9-car Chingford found the dog leg awkward to exit from. I think pre war no 1 was the preserve of the Palace Gates trains.
I remember the bay at Liverpool St Met very well. In my time, it was mostly used by Met main line trains rather than H&C.But of course,branding the H&C as such is a relatively recent (date??)thing anyway.They were all Met in my boyhood, as was the ELL.
AFAIK, the original Farringdon St was oriented just as now,the main constraining factors being the need to get as close to the business district as possible without even more wholesale demolitions and still entering the Islington tunnel (as opposed to the covered way) to start the westward thrust of the line towards Paddington
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 1, 2020 10:51:11 GMT
You would not expect to see much of the Western Region station at Westbourne Park as the reason for its closure was to make way for a remodelled track layout. However, Google Street View and Google Earth show that the street level buildings are still there and should be visible from trains passing underneath. There is also a gap between two of the tracks,(2 and 3, I think) suggestive of the site of an island platform.
Don't forget that the Hammersmith branch was originally a joint venture between the GWR and Met, and there was only one station serving both main and branch platforms.
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Post by theangel on Feb 1, 2020 18:52:52 GMT
MOD COMMENT:
These are very interesting questions theangel , but for future reference it’s much more useful to create specific threads for separate questions. That way, it’s much easier to find threads after a period of time. We want information to be accessible as easily as possible.
However, do keep asking as that’s what we are here for! 😋 Sorry. I thought a thread for every question would clog up the forum and look like spamming. I've seen people told off for that on other forums. |
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Post by theangel on Feb 1, 2020 19:00:55 GMT
The below ground Crossrail stations are much larger than anything else you will have experienced. The Liverpool Street platforms are 10 levels down with equipment rooms and ventilation equipment on the individual landings. They will be accessed by escalators and lifts. Some are incline lifts next to the escalators. I think you will have spotted Acton Main Line station rather than East Acton.This already has a TfL Rail service and will be part of Crossrail. The open air stations are all getting step free access with some new footbridges and some need platform extensions. I thought it was East Acton as the trains looked like Central Line trains - small trains which were blue, red and white, out of the left-hand window on the approach to Ealing Broadway, separate from the GWR line I was on. I actually thought it was North Acton at first but looking at the map, that would have been on the other side of the train. But if AML uses trains like this and the GWR has tracks that bypass AML, that would explain it. |
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Post by superteacher on Feb 1, 2020 19:53:35 GMT
MOD COMMENT:
These are very interesting questions theangel , but for future reference it’s much more useful to create specific threads for separate questions. That way, it’s much easier to find threads after a period of time. We want information to be accessible as easily as possible.
However, do keep asking as that’s what we are here for! 😋 Sorry. I thought a thread for every question would clog up the forum and look like spamming. I've seen people told off for that on other forums. I get what you’re saying. However, threads about multiple subjects become hard to follow and a bit cluttered. We are different from many forums - in a good way! |
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Post by theangel on Feb 2, 2020 0:48:51 GMT
Sorry. I thought a thread for every question would clog up the forum and look like spamming. I've seen people told off for that on other forums. I get what you’re saying. However, threads about multiple subjects become hard to follow and a bit cluttered. We are different from many forums - in a good way! I get what you're saying too and of course I'll do as you say. I didn't mean it as a refusal to conform, just to explain that as usual I was thinking about things in completely the wrong way! |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 2, 2020 13:12:22 GMT
I thought it was East Acton as the trains looked like Central Line trains - small trains which were blue, red and white, out of the left-hand window on the approach to Ealing Broadway, separate from the GWR line I was on. I actually thought it was North Acton at first but looking at the map, that would have been on the other side of the train. But if AML uses trains like this and the GWR has tracks that bypass AML, that would explain it. East Acton would indeed be on the left of a westbound train on the GW main line, but it is quarter of a mile away, on the other side of Wormwood Scrubs Common. About half way between East Acton and North Acton stations, the Central Line passes approximately at right angles under the main line, and you might get a glimpse of it from the main line just after passing the depots on both sides of the line (Old Oak Common and North Pole). Of course it reappears, but on the right hand (north) side of the main line, on the approach to Ealing Broadway. The local Great Western tracks, on which Acton Main Line stands, come shortly before this, also on the north side of the fast lines. These now use (purple) TfL Rail trains, but if you are talking about ten years ago, all services were still run by Great Western. GWR and TfL both use full size (not Tube) trains, and have never been red white and blue. The only places you might have seen red, white and blue trains running alongside the Great Western Mail Line, on the left as you leave Paddington, are on the approach to Westbourne Park (Hammersmith & City Line), and the approach to Reading (SWT's Class 458s in their original livery). However, if you were on one of the extremely rare (and now discontinued) trains used the "New North Line" to High Wycombe and beyond, which left the main line at Old Oak Common, you would have seen the Central Line on your left all the way from North Acton to West Ruislip. However, you would not then have passed Ealing Broadway It would have been an unusual way to go to Cardiff, although not unheard of as, until the line was severed for HS2 work, trains to the west have sometimes been diverted that way, either rejoining the main line via the Greenford branch, or by reversal at Banbury. |
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Post by countryman on Feb 2, 2020 16:34:10 GMT
I thought it was East Acton as the trains looked like Central Line trains - small trains which were blue, red and white, out of the left-hand window on the approach to Ealing Broadway, separate from the GWR line I was on. I actually thought it was North Acton at first but looking at the map, that would have been on the other side of the train. But if AML uses trains like this and the GWR has tracks that bypass AML, that would explain it. East Acton would indeed be on the left of a westbound train on the GW main line, but it is quarter of a mile away, on the other side of Wormwood Scrubs Common. About half way between East Acton and North Acton stations, the Central Line passes approximately at right angles under the main line, and you might get a glimpse of it from the main line just after passing the depots on both sides of the line (Old Oak Common and North Pole). Of course it reappears, but on the right hand (north) side of the main line, on the approach to Ealing Broadway. The local Great Western tracks, on which Acton Main Line stands, come shortly before this, also on the north side of the fast lines. These now use (purple) TfL Rail trains, but if you are talking about ten years ago, all services were still run by Great Western. GWR and TfL both use full size (not Tube) trains, and have never been red white and blue. The only places you might have seen red, white and blue trains running alongside the Great Western Mail Line, on the left as you leave Paddington, are on the approach to Westbourne Park (Hammersmith & City Line), and the approach to Reading (SWT's Class 458s in their original livery). However, if you were on one of the extremely rare (and now discontinued) trains used the "New North Line" to High Wycombe and beyond, which left the main line at Old Oak Common, you would have seen the Central Line on your left all the way from North Acton to West Ruislip. However, you would not then have passed Ealing Broadway It would have been an unusual way to go to Cardiff, although not unheard of as, until the line was severed for HS2 work, trains to the west have sometimes been diverted that way, either rejoining the main line via the Greenford branch, or by reversal at Banbury. You would also see them to the east of Ealing Broadway. The station referred to may be West Acton. East Acton and North Acton are alongside the ex GWR White City line which served the milk depot. It was closed by the time I used to travel to school. The trackbed is still there but is now so overgrown you would hardly know the railway ever existed. Part of the trackbed was taken over by the Central Line when North Acton was converted from a simple 2 platform station to the current arrangement where the centre of 3 tracks is the old eastbound main track. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 2, 2020 17:52:50 GMT
You would also see them to the east of Ealing Broadway. The station referred to may be West Acton. Not, as described, through a left side window of a Paddington - Cardiff train. |
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Post by theangel on Feb 2, 2020 18:41:57 GMT
When I said alongside it wasn't directly alongside but running in the same sort of direction. There was some sort of land between my train and the other trains which enabled me to see across it to the other trains. Could that have been Wormwood Scrubs Common?
The trains I saw seemed to be stationary so I assumed they were in a station (they were far enough away for me not to be completely sure about that and it was just s quick glimpse) but perhaps there was some disturbance on the line which had stopped the trains between stations or maybe they actually were moving but my train was moving faster. It is hard to be completely sure when it was 10 years ago and I do tend to get a bit overexcited when I see an unexpected tube train.
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
Posts: 1,255
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Post by roythebus on Feb 8, 2020 17:59:46 GMT
Remember too that the H&C, being joint with the GWR when built was built to the broad gauge of 7'0" as well as standard gauge, as was the original line from Paddington to Farringdon, hence the wider gap between track centres usually called "the six foot" in railway terminology.
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