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Post by goldenarrow on Jan 4, 2020 15:55:36 GMT
A mammoth possession of the line on the weekend of 11th/12th January 2020 between Uxbridge/Northwood and Aldgate means that the Watford North Curve will be in regular service use for the weekend.
Service pattern is summarized thus:
Aylesbury <-> Amersham (Chiltern) - 1tph
Amersham <-> Beaconsfield - 1bph*
Amersham (MET) <-> - 2tph
Chesham <-> - 2tph
Chalfont & Latimer <-> Watford <-> Northwood - 4tph
*Alternative mode of transport in use here, but we don't mention those on DD
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Post by MoreToJack on Jan 4, 2020 16:00:51 GMT
I am quite pleased that I am not working that weekend, because Northwood reversers are not particularly fun. 😅
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2020 16:28:55 GMT
what pressing button's?
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Post by MoreToJack on Jan 4, 2020 16:31:02 GMT
Less the pressing buttons, more making sure you don’t lock yourself up.
For the uninitiated, Northwood signalling control is based on a push-button panel at Harrow on the Hill cabin. The signalling setup means that to reverse a train via the siding there cannot be another train in the southbound platform. If this happens a wrong-direction move to clear that train out of the platform is generally the only way that you can get things moving again.
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Post by philthetube on Jan 4, 2020 16:46:48 GMT
Am a bit surprised that they do not start the possession one signal south of Northwood, yo make it easier to sort out this issue should it occur. If you get one in the siding, one in the platform and another queuing behind you really have issues.
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Post by MoreToJack on Jan 4, 2020 16:58:57 GMT
If only it was that simple. Whilst in theory you could begin the possession from A773A (Northwood Hills outer home, suitably maintained at danger and temporarily renumbered as PNX773A), you’re then risking a train SPADing that signal and entering the Northwood to Harrow southbound local traction current section, which would be included within the possession within its entirety. Section switches could be opened to single end feed the section if required, but that’s adding additional complexity. As an automatic signal, there’s also additional complexity involved in maintaining that signal at danger.
It’s a lot of additional work and assurance to maintain a safe possession instead of just maintaining JF22 (Northwood southbound starter) at danger, only allowing shunt JF18 to be used, albeit at the expense of the mainline shunt to be a ‘get out’ card.
Joking aside, myself and my colleagues at Harrow are all professionals and, whilst mistakes can happen, specific training is given on the local working of Northwood in situations such as this, with arrangements in place to ensure as much as possible that a train isn’t routed south whilst another is in the siding.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2020 18:29:52 GMT
To maintain a Auto signal at danger then the relevant track circuit fuse is usually removed but I have also seen a long time ago the main selection fuse (GQ) would be pulled, again this would keep it at danger.
Its no different really in 99% of the time when a Controlled signal is used to protect a area i.e possession usually the track circuit is pulled as well as the lever or button being collared from the controlling cabin / control room
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Post by sawb on Jan 4, 2020 19:05:03 GMT
What work are they doing for Chiltern and the Met?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jan 4, 2020 21:54:03 GMT
What work are they doing for Chiltern and the Met? Track replacement work at West Hampstead, track work at Harrow-on-the-Hill and Network Rail engineering work at Neasden
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Post by countryman on Jan 5, 2020 8:56:58 GMT
For clarity (for me) the slow line is closed at Harrow, so all trains are running on the fast line. There are trains from Baker Street to Amersham, Chesham and Uxbridge, presumably unable to stop at North Harrow, Pinner, Northwood Hills and Northwood, then there is the Chalfont-Watford-Northwood Hills service which is unable to reverse further south.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jan 5, 2020 9:12:34 GMT
For clarity (for me) the slow line is closed at Harrow, so all trains are running on the fast line. There are trains from Baker Street to Amersham, Chesham and Uxbridge, presumably unable to stop at North Harrow, Pinner, Northwood Hills and Northwood, then there is the Chalfont-Watford-Northwood Hills service which is unable to reverse further south. All lines closed at Harrow
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Post by countryman on Jan 5, 2020 16:26:14 GMT
For clarity (for me) the slow line is closed at Harrow, so all trains are running on the fast line. There are trains from Baker Street to Amersham, Chesham and Uxbridge, presumably unable to stop at North Harrow, Pinner, Northwood Hills and Northwood, then there is the Chalfont-Watford-Northwood Hills service which is unable to reverse further south. All lines closed at Harrow Thanks, all clear now!
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Post by goldenarrow on Jan 11, 2020 15:15:38 GMT
Here are are some half-heartedly taken videos from moi showing the trains reversing at Northwood. First and second is 21036/36 heading in and out of the siding. Third is the overbridge view of the shunt from the siding because I was bored waiting for the bus.
In the siding...
Out of the siding showing wrong road starter JF 21 in its part time occupation...
Didn't realise how dramatic the clouds were as a backdrop...
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Post by MoreToJack on Jan 11, 2020 16:12:54 GMT
The videos nicely illustrate the unusual nature of JF21, the wrong road starter. This signal is ordinarily suppressed to avoid being misread, illuminating (as seen) once the first car of a northbound train enter the platform.
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Post by superteacher on Jan 11, 2020 16:41:11 GMT
The videos nicely illustrate the unusual nature of JF21, the wrong road starter. This signal is ordinarily suppressed to avoid being misread, illuminating (as seen) once the first car of a northbound train enter the platform. I didn’t even spot that! Are there any other examples across the system?
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Post by croxleyn on Jan 11, 2020 18:29:52 GMT
A possibly naïve question... Why does the Southbound need to use the siding before reversing and crossing over to the Northbound? Why not just stay on the slow up line? Thanks
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Post by goldenarrow on Jan 11, 2020 18:40:10 GMT
A possibly naïve question... Why does the Southbound need to use the siding before reversing and crossing over to the Northbound? Why not just stay on the slow up line? Thanks MoreToJack 's 2nd post in this thread tackled what I think your asking. districtdavesforum.co.uk/post/487392/thread
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Post by rincew1nd on Jan 11, 2020 18:47:16 GMT
Here are are some half-heartedly taken videos from moi showing the trains reversing at Northwood. Out of the siding showing wrong road starter JF 21 in its part time occupation... Someone remind me what the flashing light by the right-hand headlight signifies.
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Post by metrider on Jan 11, 2020 19:22:20 GMT
Here are are some half-heartedly taken videos from moi showing the trains reversing at Northwood. Out of the siding showing wrong road starter JF 21 in its part time occupation... Someone remind me what the flashing light by the right-hand headlight signifies. I asked thie same question a couple of years ago... The answer is here... S Stock - Flashing amber 'indicator' lightFrom that thread: ..."It depends on the train. On non ato trains this means that the train is moving in unprotected mode, so the tripcock is isolated. On ato trains the light is active when the train is running in forward mode (also known as restricted manual) where it is restricted to 10mph."...Which of those cases would apply here?... It's an ATO capable train but, I assume not in an ATO area... so the first case???
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Post by metrider on Jan 11, 2020 19:26:55 GMT
Do my ears deceive me, or is there a platform announcement telling customers for Amersham and Chesham to travel to Watford and pick up their service there JUST as a direct Chesham service (well according to its indicated destination) pulls into the platform?
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Post by MoreToJack on Jan 11, 2020 19:36:51 GMT
Someone remind me what the flashing light by the right-hand headlight signifies. I asked thie same question a couple of years ago... The answer is here... S Stock - Flashing amber 'indicator' lightFrom that thread: ..."It depends on the train. On non ato trains this means that the train is moving in unprotected mode, so the tripcock is isolated. On ato trains the light is active when the train is running in forward mode (also known as restricted manual) where it is restricted to 10mph."...Which of those cases would apply here?... It's an ATO capable train but, I assume not in an ATO area... so the first case??? Train is operating in Restricted Manual (RM) mode. All S stock are now ATO-fitted, so the calling on light will activate whenever the train is put into RM. Remember, a train in RM isn't talking to the ATO system, so it makes no difference as to whether the train is in an ATO area or not. They don't, but it's not a direct Chesham service. The S stock don't have a CIS code for Amersham/Chesham via Watford, and the instruction in the relevant Timetable Notice is for trains to be labelled as 'Watford' between Northwood and Watford, and the appropriate destination thereafter. This driver hasn't followed that (for whatever reason), and of course means that any announcements made will be erroneous. That said, knowing that this will (eventually) be a Chesham train isn't unhelpful information.
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Post by rincew1nd on Jan 11, 2020 20:34:52 GMT
So why would the train be operating with its protection systems isolated for this move?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jan 11, 2020 20:36:40 GMT
So why would the train be operating with its protection systems isolated for this move? Tripcocks still operational in RM mode in non-CBTC areas
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Post by rincew1nd on Jan 11, 2020 20:37:36 GMT
Ok, perhaps I asked the wrong question. Why is it in RM mode when it's not a CBTC area?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jan 11, 2020 20:40:50 GMT
Ok, perhaps I asked the wrong question. Why is it in RM mode when it's not a CBTC area? It holds the train at maximum 9mph when making shunt-moves
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Post by MoreToJack on Jan 11, 2020 20:41:13 GMT
Yes, an important detail I missed. The train will know whether the tripcock should be operational or not (as it were) via the tripcock latch relay, which is activated at the various CBTC boundaries. (It’s also been the cause of many of the defective train issues, but of course we are now getting off topic for this thread).
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Post by rincew1nd on Jan 11, 2020 20:45:11 GMT
Ok, perhaps I asked the wrong question. Why is it in RM mode when it's not a CBTC area? It holds the train at maximum 9mph when making shunt-moves So it's a bodge which means the operator doesn't need to worry so much about controlling speed. A bit like how at the end of the M62 I turn off the cruise control in my car and turn on the speed limiter so I don't have to worry about the 50mph speed camera.
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Post by commuter on Jan 12, 2020 7:31:36 GMT
The videos nicely illustrate the unusual nature of JF21, the wrong road starter. This signal is ordinarily suppressed to avoid being misread, illuminating (as seen) once the first car of a northbound train enter the platform. I didn’t even spot that! Are there any other examples across the system? WD13a in the siding between Hammersmith and Barons Ct only displays its red aspect as the train approaches. There is also a similar signal but this time an automatic, A382 on the Terminal 4 loop of the Piccadilly Line; this is colloquially known as the pop up signal as if it is due to be at danger it is blank and only displays its red aspect as the train gets closer to it; the reason being that it is on such a long straight section it might encourage train operators to slow down too early and thus limit capacity. You’d be surprised how close red signals look when you’re in the darkness!
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jan 12, 2020 11:46:24 GMT
WD13a in the siding between Hammersmith and Barons Ct only displays its red aspect as the train approaches. Likewise the other end of the siding towards Hammersmith, WD30A is similarly suppressed until a train occupies the siding. Some signals are also extinguished to prevent confusion when carrying out moves; FG22 Dagenham East inner home, EJ2 Tower Hill inner home, FF58A Barking EB when reversing via bay roads.
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Post by PiccNT on Jan 12, 2020 17:51:04 GMT
WD13a in the siding between Hammersmith and Barons Ct only displays its red aspect as the train approaches. Likewise the other end of the siding towards Hammersmith, WD30A is similarly suppressed until a train occupies the siding. Some signals are also extinguished to prevent confusion when carrying out moves; FG22 Dagenham East inner home, EJ2 Tower Hill inner home, FF58A Barking EB when reversing via bay roads. And just for the record, you can add the station starter shunt at Heathrow 5, WZ11, although they may modify that shortly to be displaying at all times as it's in our top 10 multi-SPaD signal list.
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