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Post by goldenarrow on Jul 20, 2019 22:07:11 GMT
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Post by Colin D on Jul 21, 2019 0:22:20 GMT
Nice find goldenarrow, thoroughly enjoyed it. Thank you. |
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Post by superteacher on Jul 21, 2019 8:35:39 GMT
Great to see the goods yard at Woodford, and the old calling on signals.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 21, 2019 9:49:19 GMT
Was there once a plan to call drivers 'attendants' on ATO lines?
The people swarming all over the tracks at 6:05 was quite disturbing.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jul 21, 2019 11:33:30 GMT
Was there once a plan to call drivers 'attendants' on ATO lines? No, train drivers on LT were still called ‘Motormen’ when the Victoria Line opened. Motormen applying for the new positions and additional responsibilities (and extra money!) on the Victoria Line were graded as ATOs Automatic Train Operators. In the early-1980s the Motorman term was changed to Train Driver. Only when the other Lines started to go over to OPO One Person Operation did a new grade of Train Operator come into being. TOps were again paid a premium rate for operating OPO trains, which the Victoria Line ATOs felt hard done by when their grade became TOp. |
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Post by jimbo on Jul 21, 2019 20:56:47 GMT
Great to see the goods yard at Woodford, and the old calling on signals. Do you mean the yellow disc distant signals for freight train working? |
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Post by superteacher on Jul 21, 2019 20:58:47 GMT
Great to see the goods yard at Woodford, and the old calling on signals. Do you mean the yellow disc distant signals for freight train working? Yes those. The calling on signals looked different. Thanks for pointing out. |
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Post by t697 on Jul 21, 2019 22:41:55 GMT
The people swarming all over the tracks at 6:05 was quite disturbing. It's not the lack of hi-vis that's so surprising but the fact most of them are working within platform grounds and without much by way of Lookouts. I don't recall it ever being permitted to work on track in platform grounds during Traffic Hours because there's no immediate usable Place of Safety to move to. Anyone aware of when that was stopped? Seems amazing given the relatively poor sighting time due to the curve and the fact that both tracks are in use as seen by the train on the other road shortly afterwards. And of course these trains are in ATO, not manually driven. |
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Post by jimbo on Jul 22, 2019 10:05:54 GMT
Our school took an LT tour of this project at the time. As the space race began, it seemed anything was possible. The idea of ATO on LU began in 1955, with Ministry of Transport permission in 1958. In 1962 a trial on the South Ealing test track with an equipped R stock train allowed passenger services to commence in 1963 between Stamford Brook and Ravenscourt Park for a 12 month trial. In 1964 the Hainault - Woodford shuttle was converted as shown, which was the proving ground for the new 1967TS before opening of the Victoria line from 1968 with ATO providing a reliable peak service. Quite an achievement!
But after such success, it wasn't until around 2000 that the Central line was finally converted, the first line to do so. It was PPP that funded the start of resignalling for the Jubilee, and Northern lines, along with re-equipping of the VIctoria line after 40 years! Stamford Brook and Ravenscourt Park will be part of the final areas for sub-surface resignalling almost 60 years after the initial ATO trial, and funds still cannot be found for the Piccadilly line, including the South Ealing test track, after all these years!
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brigham
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Post by brigham on Jul 22, 2019 15:49:25 GMT
I suppose there are more important things to find funds for.
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Post by jimbo on Jul 22, 2019 19:39:10 GMT
I mentioned the space race in my last post to set the mood of the times. That started in 1957, and ended with the last man on the moon in 1972. Almost a match for the first ATO programme, 1955 to 1971 when the Victoria line reached Brixton!
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Post by spsmiler on Jul 22, 2019 21:36:12 GMT
goods wagons at Woodford, direct exit from the bay platform at Woodford for trains going to London, yellow distant disc signals (for BR goods trains, if I am correct)...
and oh, that narration accent!!!
If that was filmed in 1960 then it might be that steam locomotives had just been displaced from the few remaining BR goods and passenger trains. What a shame - it would have been so wonderful for a 'new technology' automatically driven train to have passed an 'old technology' steam hauled train. A contrast of the future and the past.
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Jul 23, 2019 7:45:56 GMT
goods wagons at Woodford, direct exit from the bay platform at Woodford for trains going to London, yellow distant disc signals (for BR goods trains, if I am correct)... and oh, that narration accent!!! If that was filmed in 1960 then it might be that steam locomotives had just been displaced from the few remaining BR goods and passenger trains. What a shame - it would have been so wonderful for a 'new technology' automatically driven train to have passed an 'old technology' steam hauled train. A contrast of the future and the past. I think the goods trains ran at night, may be after the last trains ? |
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Post by brigham on Jul 23, 2019 8:02:42 GMT
The distants appear to be in general use. Restarting from Roding Valley, the distant is 'off', giving the automatic train 'clear road ahead'.
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Post by jimbo on Jul 23, 2019 20:17:03 GMT
I hope you all listened to the commentary on this reputedly 'silent' film. I think we can do better than 'c.1960'. In passenger service must be 1964 or later. If you seek the anachronistic, auto trains carried candle lights in each car! Even on the Victoria line. The Ministry were not convinced that the batteries would last long enough. Automatic Train Operators received a monthly box of safety matches, which the smokers welcomed. Did anyone witness use of candle lights? I imagine they gave little light tucked away in a corner post of 1967TS. I believe they were not fitted on 1972TS and later removed generally.
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Post by Chris M on Jul 23, 2019 20:46:23 GMT
Can you imagine today's DfT mandating an unprotected source of flame in a railway environment  |
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Post by jimbo on Jul 24, 2019 4:19:09 GMT
Can you imagine today's DfT mandating an unprotected source of flame in a railway environment The Craven trains in this film do not carry rear oil lamps, but still have a tail light bracket for overnight stabling. There were usually two oil lamps on each train in service, one on the rear lamp bracket, as train batteries could not be trusted in the event of an extended delay. The other was on the floor of the leading cab, available for use as a tail light when the train reversed. I remember the train guard also carried a smaller oil lamp for personal use, hooked on the communicating door at the door operating position. I don't know for sure if the driver also had a personal oil lamp in the cab, but that is likely as they did later have battery hand lamps. Servicing and filling of all these oil lamps was a major task for depot lampmen. |
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Post by jimbo on Jul 24, 2019 5:31:06 GMT
….. As the space race began, it seemed anything was possible. ….. And so this ATO project led to one Craven's unit being equipped as a Fully Automatically Controlled Train for the FACT trials. It was adapted to require no staff intervention after leaving Grange Hill outer rail platform until it returned to the inner rail platform there. That meant that on arrival at Hainault platform the passenger doors would open, the leading cab shut down, the other end cab open up, and when the signal cleared the passenger doors would close and the train depart. I don't know if there were any other angles to this trial, or whether it operated in passenger service. The idea was to convert the East London line shuttle service for this type of operation, but the money never became available. It may have been a dream of some ever since. |
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Post by stapler on Jul 25, 2019 7:03:17 GMT
The number of empty wagons in Woodford yard seems high to me.It appears to be high summer when the film was done, so there would have been spare coal wagons around;maybe they were just stockpiled somewhere.I know that happened at Chingford (1873 station yard) ,but didn't know they did it at Woodford.
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Post by simran1966 on Jul 25, 2019 17:17:10 GMT
And so this ATO project led to one Craven's unit being equipped as a Fully Automatically Controlled Train for the FACT trials. It was adapted to require no staff intervention after leaving Grange Hill outer rail platform until it returned to the inner rail platform there. That meant that on arrival at Hainault platform the passenger doors would open, the leading cab shut down, the other end cab open up, and when the signal cleared the passenger doors would close and the train depart. So, at this time, was the idea of ATO that no-one would be needed to control the doors and confirm it was safe to depart? |
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Post by jimbo on Jul 25, 2019 19:09:22 GMT
ATO was bolted on to the existing signalling, which was still used by other trains, such as 1962TS to/from Hainault depot, and freight workings. This is how CBTC will work to Wimbledon, Richmond and Ealing Broadway. Amersham and Uxbridge will be fully resignalled for CBTC as on the rest of the Met line, but new colour light signals will then be provided for other trains.
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Post by jimbo on Jul 27, 2019 1:17:21 GMT
"So, at this time, was the idea of ATO that no-one would be needed to control the doors and confirm it was safe to depart?" I said: "I don't know if there were any other angles to this trial," I only know what was in LT staff news at the time. This was after the Vic line opened. Signals were keen to show all they could do. Hainault is not like Oxford Circus in the peaks! It probably saw no public service, but maybe eventually found application on the DLR some 10 years later. The next new LU trains were C stock, and there was little hope of resignalling the Circle line for ATO at the time. The main advantage of ATO then was saving the train guard job, so the idea arose of paying the driver more to also operate the doors. The unions were not keen to see a halving of their train crew members on C stock. I wonder if LT management leveraged the option of the FACT project to place pressure to eventually get union agreement for OPO on all lines, as is still used on the Bakerloo & Picc, and Sub-surface lines for a few years more. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 27, 2019 7:32:08 GMT
"So, at this time, was the idea of ATO that no-one would be needed to control the doors and confirm it was safe to depart?" I said: "I don't know if there were any other angles to this trial," I only know what was in LT staff news at the time. This was after the Vic line opened. Signals were keen to show all they could do. Hainault is not like Oxford Circus in the peaks! It probably saw no public service, but maybe eventually found application on the DLR some 10 years later. The next new LU trains were C stock, and there was little hope of resignalling the Circle line for ATO at the time. The main advantage of ATO then was saving the train guard job, so the idea arose of paying the driver more to also operate the doors. The unions were not keen to see a halving of their train crew members on C stock. I wonder if LT management leveraged the option of the FACT project to place pressure to eventually get union agreement for OPO on all lines, as is still used on the Bakerloo & Picc, and Sub-surface lines for a few years more. What does FACT stand for? |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jul 27, 2019 7:52:45 GMT
What does FACT stand for? Was already kindly spelt out by jimbo in this post above: Post |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 27, 2019 8:14:28 GMT
What does FACT stand for? Was already kindly spelt out by jimbo in this post above: PostOops, missed it. Hidden in plain view before it was used. |
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Post by t697 on Jul 27, 2019 8:43:49 GMT
Some folk on the FACT project unofficially called it Fully Automatic Railway Train. And abbreviated that of course...
It was always actually manned but could operate as described. There was nothing other than the door interlocks and the Signalling to assure safe departure. And I'm pretty sure it didn't carry passengers. Some of the extra kit was mounted in the saloons of the DM cars for simplicity of the demonstration.
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Post by gantshill on Jul 29, 2019 9:34:57 GMT
I have finally had a chance to watch the film. A great find. When I was a child/teenager in the 1970s I would sometimes travel from Gants Hill into London the long way around the loop, to ride the 1960 stock to Woodford. (I never had my ticket inspected, as I doubt that a cheap day return into central London was valid between Hainault and Woodford). I did the journey from Woodford to Hainault much less often.
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