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Post by A60stock on May 9, 2020 17:32:18 GMT
The 2016/17 base business case for a new fleet for four lines was compared against a "Do Minimum" case of a deferred and de-scoped "Austerity" upgrade package in the late 2030s and early 2040s providing only a one-for-one replacement of the current fleet, or a 15 years delay, which would require a short to medium term programme of expenditure to maintain the existing fleets' safe and reliable service until replacement. However, the 2018/19 Business Case was updated to now compare with a "Do Nothing" case which no longer assumed that investment funding becomes available. Expenditure to maintain the existing fleet's safe and reliable service could therefore continue into the long-term. With no service increase to meet growing demand, and therefore growing congestion, this option would result in negative passenger benefits, revenue loss, and increased operating expenses. In the event the Piccadilly line train order was placed, but the "Do Nothing" case may now apply to the Bakerloo, resulting in an ageing train fleet which could rival achievements on the Isle of Wight with its current operation of 1938 tube stock. When you say rival achievements with the 38ts on the Isle of Wight, how old do you expect the fleet to be when replacement begins? |
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on May 9, 2020 18:36:35 GMT
The 2016/17 base business case for a new fleet for four lines was compared against a "Do Minimum" case of a deferred and de-scoped "Austerity" upgrade package in the late 2030s and early 2040s providing only a one-for-one replacement of the current fleet, or a 15 years delay, which would require a short to medium term programme of expenditure to maintain the existing fleets' safe and reliable service until replacement. However, the 2018/19 Business Case was updated to now compare with a "Do Nothing" case which no longer assumed that investment funding becomes available. Expenditure to maintain the existing fleet's safe and reliable service could therefore continue into the long-term. With no service increase to meet growing demand, and therefore growing congestion, this option would result in negative passenger benefits, revenue loss, and increased operating expenses. In the event the Piccadilly line train order was placed, but the "Do Nothing" case may now apply to the Bakerloo, resulting in an ageing train fleet which could rival achievements on the Isle of Wight with its current operation of 1938 tube stock. When you say rival achievements with the 38ts on the Isle of Wight, how old do you expect the fleet to be when replacement begins? Given the current situation, and depending on how long all this lasts, I’d say all bets are off. I don’t think we’ll see the 72 stock reach 80, but I’d say there’s now a very high chance they’ll see 60, and perhaps a bit more beyond. I can’t see the signalling being replaced for some time now either. Who will need the LT Museum when we have the Bakerloo Line! |
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Post by Chris L on May 9, 2020 19:27:37 GMT
The last time I was in Stonebridge Park depot I saw one train undergoing a lot of remedial work on the door pillar/floor interfaces. This was part of a programme for all the trains.
I believe this structural work was to ensure the trains can continue in service for years to come.
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Post by jimbo on May 9, 2020 20:40:47 GMT
With the heavy structural repairs recently complete, I believe the claim was that the trains were fit for another 15 years service, although I can't find that now. With no funding foreseeable for new trains, the plan is to just repair and maintain as necessary into the future. I suppose there may be a time when that becomes more costly than a new train fleet, but until that arises the 1972TS continues. These trains are required to run less km annually than most other lines, so if they reach 60 years they will have only travelled as far as Picc trains have now! There was talk of a Piccadilly PICU style life extension for the signalling, which may become necessary in the next few years.
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Post by Westinghouse on May 14, 2020 19:01:18 GMT
I happened to be on 3238 today, only noticed when I went to change ends at Elephant and was struck by how bright the saloon was.
First observation is how bright and white it is compared to the old fluorescents.
The bulkhead lights have been removed and covered over and the light housings are now twice the length of the old ones.
Cant get photos to link properly, will work on it
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Post by Westinghouse on May 14, 2020 19:26:01 GMT
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Post by AndrewPSSP on May 14, 2020 19:37:10 GMT
That's a shame - I thought the bulkhead lights looked quite nice.
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Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
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Post by Tom on May 14, 2020 19:48:04 GMT
I'm not surprised - the number of lights that are out on the average 72 Stock car has just been decreased!
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Post by underover on May 14, 2020 19:58:04 GMT
I would be more surprised seeing 3338 out and about  |
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on May 14, 2020 20:09:53 GMT
They would look better if the dirt was cleaned from the grill over the cab door .
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Post by spsmiler on May 14, 2020 21:19:45 GMT
That's a shame - I thought the bulkhead lights looked quite nice. my thought too
I'm not surprised at the increase in brightness plus more 'white' colour of the LED lights
Whilst the running cost of the LED lighting is also lower, can LU afford the capital investment required for the entire Bakerloo line fleet?
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Post by jimbo on May 15, 2020 0:08:11 GMT
That's a shame - I thought the bulkhead lights looked quite nice. my thought too
I'm not surprised at the increase in brightness plus more 'white' colour of the LED lights
Whilst the running cost of the LED lighting is also lower, can LU afford the capital investment required for the entire Bakerloo line fleet?
If the running cost saving covers the changeover costs within say four years, I suppose they are worthwhile. In the Bakerloo case they release house power for passenger information displays required for the Rail Vehicle Accessibility Regulations (RVAR) by the end of 2021. The bulkhead lights were to hide that end windows couldn't be cut into these trains! |
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class411
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Post by class411 on May 15, 2020 11:35:27 GMT
my thought too I'm not surprised at the increase in brightness plus more 'white' colour of the LED lights Whilst the running cost of the LED lighting is also lower, can LU afford the capital investment required for the entire Bakerloo line fleet?
If the running cost saving covers the changeover costs within say four years, I suppose they are worthwhile. In the Bakerloo case they release house power for passenger information displays required for the Rail Vehicle Accessibility Regulations (RVAR) by the end of 2021. The bulkhead lights were to hide that end windows couldn't be cut into these trains! People keep mentioning 'freeing power'. What is the 'bottleneck' for power for internal systems? Presumably there must be some sort of current limited voltage reduction system somewhere on board - would that be it? |
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Post by countryman on May 15, 2020 11:42:07 GMT
If the running cost saving covers the changeover costs within say four years, I suppose they are worthwhile. In the Bakerloo case they release house power for passenger information displays required for the Rail Vehicle Accessibility Regulations (RVAR) by the end of 2021. The bulkhead lights were to hide that end windows couldn't be cut into these trains! People keep mentioning 'freeing power'. What is the 'bottleneck' for power for internal systems? Presumably there must be some sort of current limited voltage reduction system somewhere on board - would that be it? I would have thought that it is to prevent an increase in power consumption, although I wouldn't expect new LED screens to be power-hungry. |
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Post by t697 on May 15, 2020 12:15:42 GMT
The batteries that support control and auxiliaries are a fixed size unless one invests in providing bigger ones. The batteries have to support emergency lighting and other 'essentials' if the traction supply is lost. There is a specified 'minimum stand up' duration to be met. Therefore LED lighting probably helps achieve that and 'free up' power for other systems and/or keep the lights on for longer even as the batteries are aged a few years rather than new. May even help the batteries last longer between renewals.
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Post by Chris L on May 15, 2020 15:17:31 GMT
The batteries that support control and auxiliaries are a fixed size unless one invests in providing bigger ones. The batteries have to support emergency lighting and other 'essentials' if the traction supply is lost. There is a specified 'minimum stand up' duration to be met. Therefore LED lighting probably helps achieve that and 'free up' power for other systems and/or keep the lights on for longer even as the batteries are aged a few years rather than new. May even help the batteries last longer between renewals. It is likely that LED fittings will stay lit for a time even if the supply is lost. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on May 15, 2020 17:09:04 GMT
The batteries that support control and auxiliaries are a fixed size unless one invests in providing bigger ones. The batteries have to support emergency lighting and other 'essentials' if the traction supply is lost. There is a specified 'minimum stand up' duration to be met. Therefore LED lighting probably helps achieve that and 'free up' power for other systems and/or keep the lights on for longer even as the batteries are aged a few years rather than new. May even help the batteries last longer between renewals. It is likely that LED fittings will stay lit for a time even if the supply is lost. Yes, local capacitor would be cheap, compact, and reliable. |
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Post by Westinghouse on May 15, 2020 18:41:39 GMT
The batteries that support control and auxiliaries are a fixed size unless one invests in providing bigger ones. The batteries have to support emergency lighting and other 'essentials' if the traction supply is lost. There is a specified 'minimum stand up' duration to be met. Therefore LED lighting probably helps achieve that and 'free up' power for other systems and/or keep the lights on for longer even as the batteries are aged a few years rather than new. May even help the batteries last longer between renewals. It is likely that LED fittings will stay lit for a time even if the supply is lost. Cannot say for sure, but I didn’t notice the saloon lights going out over any rail gaps during 2 trips on this train yesterday. |
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Post by underover on May 15, 2020 19:19:30 GMT
It is likely that LED fittings will stay lit for a time even if the supply is lost. Yes, local capacitor would be cheap, compact, and reliable. And makes simple lamp change a lot more of a hazard (making sure its discharged before working on the circuit) I believe they are looking at new batteries for the bakerloo as well, which then could be spread over to other stocks which still use the same type of battery. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on May 16, 2020 8:56:34 GMT
Yes, local capacitor would be cheap, compact, and reliable. And makes simple lamp change a lot more of a hazard (making sure its discharged before working on the circuit) It shouldn't be an issue as LED's tend to work on 5v or 12v circuits (i.e. it would be no more dangerous than plugging in an external hard drive). Unless tfl are using some sort of direct (i.e. high voltage) replacement (very unlikely as it would be a much more expensive option), in which case the local capacitor solution would be inapplicable (unless it was built into the tube assembly). |
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Post by t697 on May 16, 2020 13:49:04 GMT
Yes, local capacitor would be cheap, compact, and reliable. And makes simple lamp change a lot more of a hazard (making sure its discharged before working on the circuit) I believe they are looking at new batteries for the bakerloo as well, which then could be spread over to other stocks which still use the same type of battery. Just realised the 72TS is the only LUL passenger fleet left with the traditional nominal 56Ah battery size now. Picc line 73TS got bigger ones when it was refurbished. Some Engineers Vehicles still use them though, especially those converted from old passenger vehicles. |
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Post by underover on May 17, 2020 16:03:10 GMT
And makes simple lamp change a lot more of a hazard (making sure its discharged before working on the circuit) I believe they are looking at new batteries for the bakerloo as well, which then could be spread over to other stocks which still use the same type of battery. Just realised the 72TS is the only LUL passenger fleet left with the traditional nominal 56Ah battery size now. Picc line 73TS got bigger ones when it was refurbished. Some Engineers Vehicles still use them though, especially those converted from old passenger vehicles. Larger capacity maybe, but can't imagine they would up the voltage as it would then mean having to change the relay boards, emergency light inverters etc |
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Post by underover on May 17, 2020 16:07:03 GMT
And makes simple lamp change a lot more of a hazard (making sure its discharged before working on the circuit) It shouldn't be an issue as LED's tend to work on 5v or 12v circuits (i.e. it would be no more dangerous than plugging in an external hard drive). Unless tfl are using some sort of direct (i.e. high voltage) replacement (very unlikely as it would be a much more expensive option), in which case the local capacitor solution would be inapplicable (unless it was built into the tube assembly). All depends on the type of LED used and the forward voltage, but no reason why you could not have them running at 48V for example. Regardless, capacitors in a circuit means you must leave it to self discharge before working on the circuit officially. Whether it would happen in practice is another question. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on May 17, 2020 17:59:28 GMT
It shouldn't be an issue as LED's tend to work on 5v or 12v circuits (i.e. it would be no more dangerous than plugging in an external hard drive). Unless tfl are using some sort of direct (i.e. high voltage) replacement (very unlikely as it would be a much more expensive option), in which case the local capacitor solution would be inapplicable (unless it was built into the tube assembly). All depends on the type of LED used and the forward voltage, but no reason why you could not have them running at 48V for example. Regardless, capacitors in a circuit means you must leave it to self discharge before working on the circuit officially. Whether it would happen in practice is another question. Well, they would self discharge themselves as soon as power was removed, although I suppose you would need a bleed resistor to complete the discharge over a few minutes or so when the diodes cut out, and a pilot LED which would extinguish when the voltage fell below ~ 3v. |
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