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Post by sammyj on Jul 2, 2019 11:26:07 GMT
I've just finished reading snippets about the Jubilee line and the extension to Stratford etc.
Just wondering was there any chatter of keeping the Charing Cross line open alongside the extension or was it always going to be closed, also was an extension always planned when the line first opened?
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Post by Chris L on Jul 2, 2019 13:20:06 GMT
I've just finished reading snippets about the Jubilee line and the extension to Stratford etc. Just wondering was there any chatter of keeping the Charing Cross line open alongside the extension or was it always going to be closed, also was an extension always planned when the line first opened? When first built it was planned to run to Thamesmead via Fleet Street and Lewisham and the line was to be known as the Fleet Line. The tunnels extend beyond Charing Cross to the Aldwych area. The Stratford route needed to go via Waterloo to Canary Wharf to satisfy the developers. It was deemed that keeping the Charing Cross platforms open would cause too many delays but they can be used as a reversing point in the event of problems on the line. |
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Post by peterc on Jul 2, 2019 13:29:06 GMT
The original plan was for the line to continue under Strand and Fleet Street to Fenchurch Street and then to take over the East London Line, hence the original plan to call it the Fleet Line. London's last remaining bomb site, on Ludgate Hill, remained vacant into, I think, the 1990s as it was an access point for the orignal route.
I believe that it was originally thought that traffic north of the Thames would be heavier and some trains would terminate at Charing Cross. The expansion of Canary Wharf killed this idea long before tunnelling finished.
There are details of the original plans in the Wikipedia entry for the Jubilee Line.
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Post by goldenarrow on Jul 2, 2019 13:31:48 GMT
To my understanding, Charing X via Bond St and Green Park was always intended to be part 1 of 4 the Fleet Line laterly the Jubilee Line. It was then supposed to be projected East through phase 2 following Strand via Aldwych through the CIty of London. Phase 3 would take it South of the River Thames were a number of options were put forward including taking over the East London Line South of Surrey Quays, reaching Thamesmead via North Greenwich or even going down to Lewisham via the Addiscombe / Hayes Branches. However once phase 1 was completed, the continued funding of the project stalled and ultimately stagnated leaving the Jubilee line to soak up passengers from the Bakerloo Line.
The changing economic climate of the 1980's plus the advent of the Canary Wharf development that started to alter the future course. The East London Railway Study also played a part suggesting a route linking Waterloo and London Bridge to the new developments in the East. North Greenwich was also in the early stages of being realised plus the opportunity to use surplus land on the alignment of the North London Line got the route up to Stratford.
It was probably from this stage that Charing X's fate was sealed as Westminster would now undoubtedly get a new station and Charing X to Waterloo already had two lines erving it.
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
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Post by North End on Jul 2, 2019 13:36:58 GMT
I've just finished reading snippets about the Jubilee line and the extension to Stratford etc. Just wondering was there any chatter of keeping the Charing Cross line open alongside the extension or was it always going to be closed, also was an extension always planned when the line first opened? Yes it was considered and rejected. Charing Cross station is comparatively quiet, and interchange with the Bakerloo and Northern lines is achieved nearby at Waterloo. People coming from the north end of the Jubilee to Charing Cross have a simple interchange to the Bakerloo at Baker Street, so the only journeys that are seriously disadvantaged are from/to Bond Street and Green Park. By contrast the extension section of the Jubilee is by far the busier half of the line, so running to Charing Cross would simply deprive this section of much-needed trains. As time has gone on this has become more and more of an issue - there’s already a problem with insufficient reversing capacity at the north end of the line, so running half empty trains north from Charing Cross would be completely unviable. There was consideration given to keeping the platforms open for emergencies, and indeed in the very early days after the JLE opened ISTR a small handful of trains did reach Charing Cross complete with passengers during disruption. I think the need for escalator refurbishment was the final nail in the coffin for this at the time. Perhaps if there was ever the need for a long-term closure of the JLE east of Green Park then there could be a case for Charing Cross being pressed back into use on a temporary basis to aid connectivity. |
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Post by sammyj on Jul 2, 2019 14:25:50 GMT
wow there is so many factors i didn't realise.
is there anywhere i can find out what stations would of been had the "original" plan from Charing cross to Thameslink happened?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jul 2, 2019 14:35:27 GMT
Charing X to Waterloo already had two lines serving it. Three if you include the National Rail route Charing Cross station is comparatively quiet, and interchange with the Bakerloo and Northern lines is achieved nearby at Waterloo. Jubilee/SER passengers are catered for by the interchanges at Southwark and London Bridge City Thameslink station opened in 1990. The Ludgate Hill bomb site was incorporated into the office development subsequently built over the station. |
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Post by John Tuthill on Jul 2, 2019 15:32:26 GMT
Charing X to Waterloo already had two lines serving it. Three if you include the National Rail route Charing Cross station is comparatively quiet, and interchange with the Bakerloo and Northern lines is achieved nearby at Waterloo. Jubilee/SER passengers are catered for by the interchanges at Southwark and London Bridge City Thameslink station opened in 1990. The Ludgate Hill bomb site was incorporated into the office development subsequently built over the station. When I worked in the City eons ago, the bomb site had a sign up saying something to the effect: "Proposed station site for the new Fleet Line" |
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Post by rapidtransitman on Jul 2, 2019 16:25:42 GMT
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Post by Chris L on Jul 2, 2019 16:30:33 GMT
To my understanding, Charing X via Bond St and Green Park was always intended to be part 1 of 4 the Fleet Line laterly the Jubilee Line. It was then supposed to be projected East through phase 2 following Strand via Aldwych through the CIty of London. Phase 3 would take it South of the River Thames were a number of options were put forward including taking over the East London Line South of Surrey Quays, reaching Thamesmead via North Greenwich or even going down to Lewisham via the Addiscombe / Hayes Branches. However once phase 1 was completed, the continued funding of the project stalled and ultimately stagnated leaving the Jubilee line to soak up passengers from the Bakerloo Line. The changing economic climate of the 1980's plus the advent of the Canary Wharf development that started to alter the future course. The East London Railway Study also played a part suggesting a route linking Waterloo and London Bridge to the new developments in the East. North Greenwich was also in the early stages of being realised plus the opportunity to use surplus land on the alignment of the North London Line got the route up to Stratford. It was probably from this stage that Charing X's fate was sealed as Westminster would now undoubtedly get a new station and Charing X to Waterloo already had two lines erving it. Hayes & Addiscombe are way beyond Lewisham. The station at Lewisham was to be below ground on the site recently vacated by the bus parking area. |
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Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
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Post by Tom on Jul 2, 2019 21:33:03 GMT
When I worked in the City eons ago, the bomb site had a sign up saying something to the effect: "Proposed station site for the new Fleet Line" features a photo of said sign. |
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