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Post by jimbo on Jun 29, 2019 20:59:39 GMT
We can all see the join in Central line platforms where they were lengthened for 8-car trains. I have long wondered if the centre sidings had to be lengthened too. Or perhaps they were built for a loco to pull a train in, and then another loco would couple up to pull it back out, and that equalled 8-cars. Anyone been in Marble Arch Siding recently and seen the join?
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metman
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Post by metman on Jul 1, 2019 20:04:35 GMT
The Central line coaching and then multiple unit stock were a bit shorter than the standard and 1959/62 stock so I would imagine that the sidings needed extending unless there was a lot of overrun space!
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Post by jimbo on Jul 2, 2019 4:30:14 GMT
The Central line coaching and then multiple unit stock were a bit shorter than the standard and 1959/62 stock so I would imagine that the sidings needed extending unless there was a lot of overrun space! I believe the original track layout provided a crossover for reversal direct from the platform in the opposite direction to the siding. This must have required a stabled train to be further into the siding to allow clearance. The removal of the crossover would therefore have freed up some stabling space. |
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Post by jimbo on Jul 4, 2019 4:41:05 GMT
I have briefly researched for my thread on CLR centre sidings, which I will soon post there. I discovered that the Marble Arch siding once held two 6-car trains, so extension wouldn't be necessary for 8-car trains. I always believed that the three sidings were similar, and asked about Marble Arch as the only one still operational. I found no evidence that Queensway or British Museum held two trains, so they may have needed an extension. But I doubt that we have a member still able to access them to check for the join! Perhaps someone has details of the original CLR siding lengths, or of the post-war Central line siding lengths, so that we could compare them. see also districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/30751/central-london-railway-centre-sidings |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jul 13, 2019 23:53:00 GMT
b Perhaps someone has details of the original CLR siding lengths, or of the post-war Central line siding lengths, so that we could compare them. Late to the party as ever, but the pre-war length I have noted for British Museum siding is 627' 6". |
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Post by jimbo on Jul 15, 2019 5:01:14 GMT
Late to the party as ever, but the pre-war length I have noted for British Museum siding is 627' 6". This distance looks like around 12 cars long, the same as Marble Arch, so no need to lengthen for 8 car rather than 6 car trains, just no longer use for two trains. I don't know why Queen's Road would have been built any different to the other two, so it suggests that no lengthening was necessary for any of them. Must be plenty of overrun distance in Marble Arch siding today. |
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Post by jimbo on Jul 29, 2019 1:53:27 GMT
Night Tube reverses at Marble Arch on both Friday nights 2nd & 16th August. Perhaps someone may be able to report approx. how far a stabled train stands from the tunnel end, and also how far it is from the points before it drives back out.
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Post by goldenarrow on Jul 29, 2019 12:11:42 GMT
Night Tube reverses at Marble Arch on both Friday nights 2nd & 16th August. Perhaps someone may be able to report approx. how far a stabled train stands from the tunnel end, and also how far it is from the points before it drives back out. I can tell you that right away. Today a reversing eight car unit only clears 3701 points (for the Eastbound) by a few metres. Bear in mind that there is a fair amount of track between the Westbound and Eastbound points, at least two cars in my opinion. |
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Post by jimbo on Jul 30, 2019 20:12:51 GMT
Night Tube reverses at Marble Arch on both Friday nights 2nd & 16th August. Perhaps someone may be able to report approx. how far a stabled train stands from the tunnel end, and also how far it is from the points before it drives back out. I can tell you that right away. Today a reversing eight car unit only clears 3701 points (for the Eastbound) by a few metres. Bear in mind that there is a fair amount of track between the Westbound and Eastbound points, at least two cars in my opinion. Thanks goldenarrow. I presume that points have always been sited as now, and layout permited a former facing crossover to link with the connection to the westbound line. This allowed direct reversal from eastbound to westbound in the westbound platform. A mirror image layout at Queensway has the facing crossover today with the siding removed. So with points as today at Marble Arch, and 8 car train stabling close by, the former 12 car siding must have room for another 4 cars at the west end of a stabled train. Can this still be seen, or is it used for p.way cabins/storage etc? |
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Post by goldenarrow on Jul 30, 2019 22:03:29 GMT
I can tell you that right away. Today a reversing eight car unit only clears 3701 points (for the Eastbound) by a few metres. Bear in mind that there is a fair amount of track between the Westbound and Eastbound points, at least two cars in my opinion. Thanks goldenarrow. I presume that points have always been sited as now, and layout permited a former facing crossover to link with the connection to the westbound line. This allowed direct reversal from eastbound to westbound in the westbound platform. A mirror image layout at Queensway has the facing crossover today with the siding removed. So with points as today at Marble Arch, and 8 car train stabling close by, the former 12 car siding must have room for another 4 cars at the west end of a stabled train. Can this still be seen, or is it used for p.way cabins/storage etc? That one is racking my brain, the rather dated Tube track mileage map that I have got notes that Marble Arch siding is 150.5m so I would assume that it was filled in as opposed to being designalled like Down St. |
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Post by jimbo on Aug 12, 2019 0:01:14 GMT
Night Tube reverses at Marble Arch on both Friday nights 2nd & 16th August. Perhaps someone may be able to report approx. how far a stabled train stands from the tunnel end, and also how far it is from the points before it drives back out. So it's on again this Friday. Can anyone tell us what is up at the end of the siding? There was once room for another 4 cars! How much space today? I presume PWay have made use of some of that for storage etc. |
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Post by londonstuff on Aug 12, 2019 3:51:12 GMT
Night Tube reverses at Marble Arch on both Friday nights 2nd & 16th August. Perhaps someone may be able to report approx. how far a stabled train stands from the tunnel end, and also how far it is from the points before it drives back out. So it's on again this Friday. Can anyone tell us what is up at the end of the siding? There was once room for another 4 cars! How much space today? I presume PWay have made use of some of that for storage etc. Someone will do it, I’m sure! I don’t suppose this helps, obviously it’s the reverse of what you wanted. |
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Post by JR 15secs on Aug 13, 2019 6:48:16 GMT
Night Tube reverses at Marble Arch on both Friday nights 2nd & 16th August. Perhaps someone may be able to report approx. how far a stabled train stands from the tunnel end, and also how far it is from the points before it drives back out. So it's on again this Friday. Can anyone tell us what is up at the end of the siding? There was once room for another 4 cars! How much space today? I presume PWay have made use of some of that for storage etc. As I remember at the end of the siding were some steps going down and lead to the running tunnels, it seemed a long siding when you’re walking. This was in the early 1980s. |
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Post by jimbo on Aug 15, 2019 2:12:14 GMT
Underground News had a series by Piers Connor on The Central London Electric Train in 2013 which gave the car length over couplers as 46.5 feet. A 6-car train was therefore 279 feet, and two trains formerly stabled would have required at least 558 feet, or 170 metres. Goldenarrow above gives the recent length of Marble Arch siding as 150.5 metres, so at least 20 metres of tunnel disused. Current 92TS train is 132.628 over couplers so almost another 20 metres of track to spare for safety overrun etc. mrfs42 above said the pre-war length for British Museum siding was 627' 6" or 69.5 feet (21 metres) more than 2 x 6-car trains for safety overrun etc. It is likely that all three original centre sidings were of similar length. There was no need to lengthen them when 8-car trains were introduced. I'm just wondering what is going on up the end of the Marble Arch siding tunnel these days.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 20:59:59 GMT
Certainly trains were stabled in Marble Arch and British Museum sidings at various times between the peaks in CLR days (according to the timetable in operation) and the latter train in question carried passengers from Liverpool Street to British Museum (or Holborn from September 1933). Stabling at British Museum even took place post WW2 but was discontinued from 2/2/48.
The lengths of the CLR sidings (in 1920) were:
617 ft – Queen’s Road
629 ft – Marble Arch
622 ft – British Museum
381 ft – Liverpool Street Up
379 ft – Liverpool Street Down
For the record the other deep tube sidings (1920) were:
Hampstead Line –
604 ft – Highgate NB siding
613 ft – Highgate SB siding
151 ft – Golders Green NB siding
153 ft – Golders Green SB siding
Bakerloo Line –
325 ft – Elephant & Castle SB siding
360 ft – Elephant & Castle NB siding
610 ft – Queen’s Park No.2 siding
510 ft – Queen’s Park No.3 siding
912 ft – Queen’s Park No.5 siding
830 ft – Queen’s Park No.6 siding
460 ft – Harrow Down road
400 ft – Harrow layby between Up and Down roads north end
Reference is also made that “Willesden Junction bay platforms, 5 cars maximum”.
Piccadilly Line –
308 ft – Finsbury Park EB siding
303 ft – Finsbury Park WB siding
460 ft – Hammersmith (‘wall’ road)
635 ft – Barons Court No.1 nearest running roads
104 ft – Barons Court No.1 bay east end of No.1
620 ft – Barons Court No.2
180 ft – Barons Court No.2 bay
106 ft – dead end at west end of No.2
All timetables on all these lines assume cars to be 50 ft length.
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Post by jimbo on Aug 29, 2019 5:39:14 GMT
Certainly trains were stabled in Marble Arch and British Museum sidings at various times between the peaks in CLR days (according to the timetable in operation) and the latter train in question carried passengers from Liverpool Street to British Museum (or Holborn from September 1933). Stabling at British Museum even took place post WW2 but was discontinued from 2/2/48. The lengths of the CLR sidings (in 1920) were: 617 ft – Queen’s Road 629 ft – Marble Arch 622 ft – British Museum 381 ft – Liverpool Street Up 379 ft – Liverpool Street Down For the record the other deep tube sidings (1920) were: ..... Interesting that by the time of construction of LER lines the need for sidings along the route had passed. The only tunnel sidings mentioned are those in the overrun tunnels at termini. Only the Highgate ones hold two trains. Even the Central line Liverpool Street overrun tunnels only cope with one train each. The original three CLR double length sidings seem to be unique. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 16:44:15 GMT
Could it be that the CLR sidings were designed to accommodate locos as well as coaching stock, hence their length? Just a thought.
Re the Liverpool Street sidings, all the locos had long gone from passenger service, so the sidings were of "normal" length. I seem to recall that each of the three longer sidings beyond the 'exit' end, had space to put a (spare) loco.
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Post by jimbo on Aug 31, 2019 4:26:08 GMT
Could it be that the CLR sidings were designed to accommodate locos as well as coaching stock, hence their length? Just a thought. Re the Liverpool Street sidings, all the locos had long gone from passenger service, so the sidings were of "normal" length. I seem to recall that each of the three longer sidings beyond the 'exit' end, had space to put a (spare) loco. The CLR was planned for trains of loco +7 cars, so 355.5 feet, and 385.5 feet with second loco to pull train from siding. This doesn't relate to the length of the centre sidings, and yet a second train would need 741 feet, which is too long by three cars. There were no loco spurs at both ends of the line, the double track termini being adequate to allow loco changes, but the three centre sidings did each have a loco spur by continuing the siding beyond the points towards the platforms. This suggests that they intended to operate regular short workings to each of these, which apparently never came to pass, or not for long. The original track layouts are in Piers Connor's article on the Central London Electric Train, part one in November 2012 Underground News, and details of the locos in part two, the folowing month. |
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Post by jimbo on Jan 25, 2020 19:54:54 GMT
Well, I've had some time to think about this now! Goldenarrow above gives the recent length of Marble Arch siding as 150.5 metres (493.77 feet), whilst the 1920 length was 629 feet. Quite a lot abandoned as no longer of use with 8-car trains. But the line was built for trains of loco +7 cars of 355.5 feet, so why 629 feet siding? Won't fit two. Could it be that before 1920 sidings were even longer, and there is further tunnel that was then abandoned after locos finished? Has anyone the length of the current reversing tunnel to the far end, rather than the shorter length of the siding track within?
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Post by jimbo on Feb 10, 2020 1:26:16 GMT
With the introduction of 7-car and then 8-car trains to the Central line, the running tunnels required slight enlargement to accept standard tube trains, so presumably the unused ends of the centre sidings remain at the original smaller diameter, and the difference can be seen at the point where enlargement ended. I suppose the original CLR track beyond was lifted, with its centre third rail, so is no longer to be seen.
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Post by jimbo on Feb 16, 2020 23:46:34 GMT
It would seem that the siding was only shortened after Moorgate tunnel end collision, along with similar modifications to dead ends throughout the LU system. I wonder why Marble Arch siding stabled two 6-car trains, at least 1933 to 1947, whilst no record of this in Queensway and British Museum sidings of similar length. Was Marble Arch siding ever signalled for two trains, with midpoint shunt signals?
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roythebus
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Post by roythebus on Feb 17, 2020 17:58:41 GMT
It wouldn't need 2 shunt signals. A shunt signal means "move forward as far as the line is clear, be prepared to stop sort of any obstruction".
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Post by jimbo on Feb 18, 2020 2:55:16 GMT
It wouldn't need 2 shunt signals. A shunt signal means "move forward as far as the line is clear, be prepared to stop sort of any obstruction". Agreed, but I was thinking of Kennington, where North End recently posted "In the old days there was a pair of shunt signals at the mid-point, which admitted and released trains in and out of the second half." districtdavesforum.co.uk/post/488707 The same applies in Parson's Green double length siding today. |
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