Ben
fotopic... whats that?
Posts: 4,282
|
Post by Ben on Mar 19, 2019 13:45:28 GMT
Does anyone know how dwell times on the ELL compare to values during the A stocks latter tenure? Granted use is through the roof, but the current 378's have 10 double doors for a longer train, compared to the A60/62s equivalent of 11 double doors for a shorter length.
Ta in advance!
|
|
|
Post by goldenarrow on Mar 19, 2019 18:33:21 GMT
Dwell times definitely seem longer nowadays partly due to more doors which are passenger operated which in it self takes longer and partly due to more defensive driving required because of the tighter tolerance for selective door operation at certain stations preventing the flying stops that you could do on the A stock which is also due to the differing control layouts.
Used to use Wapping and Shadwell fairly heavily before the ELL closed, trains usually only stopped for about 20 seconds.
Comparing video footage before and after for the same stations at off peak periods, I’d say the ELL under London Overground is on average 10 to 15 seconds longer that is was on under London Underground.
|
|
Ben
fotopic... whats that?
Posts: 4,282
|
Post by Ben on Mar 19, 2019 22:25:43 GMT
Thanks for the observations. Wrong end of London for me to have any real experience. Can well imagine the tight berthing causes some issues. The Anglia sectional appendix pages covering the ELL havent been updated since 2014
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2019 22:39:16 GMT
Are there more trains now (service frequency) under the overground brand or did LUL run a better timetable?
|
|
|
Post by goldenarrow on Mar 19, 2019 23:11:41 GMT
Are there more trains now (service frequency) under the overground brand or did LUL run a better timetable? Memory is getting a bit hazy but I think it was a 15 mins frequency alternating between the two New Crosses giving a 7.5mins headway to/from Whitechapel or Shoreditch. Nowadays you never have to wait for more than a maximum 5-6 mins (during the day) for a London Overground train to show up so the service has definitely improved since the route now forms part of an integrated network that simply wasn’t the case when A stock units rumbled through what was then still something of a backwater. So much has changed in a decade.
|
|
|
Post by snoggle on Mar 21, 2019 22:05:03 GMT
Are there more trains now (service frequency) under the overground brand or did LUL run a better timetable? Memory is getting a bit hazy but I think it was a 15 mins frequency alternating between the two New Crosses giving a 7.5mins headway to/from Whitechapel or Shoreditch. Nowadays you never have to wait for more than a maximum 5-6 mins (during the day) for a London Overground train to show up so the service has definitely improved since the route now forms part of an integrated network that simply wasn’t the case when A stock units rumbled through what was then still something of a backwater. So much has changed in a decade. From memory it was x15 on each southern branch (NX / NXG) off peak which stepped up to x12 in the peaks. That gave a x7.5 / x6 headway Surrey Quays to Whitechapel (Shoreditch in peaks but can't remember how frequent the Shoreditch service was). Needless to say the service on the core section (and north thereof) is vastly better with trains every 4-5 mins for a lot of the time. The only branch where you could argue things are not quite as good is to New Cross. Demand is now on a scale that was probably unimaginable in LU days.
|
|
class411
Operations: Normal
Posts: 2,743
|
Post by class411 on Mar 22, 2019 10:25:34 GMT
What is 'ELL'?
It's not in the abbreviation list.
Given the mention of A-Stock I checked the Metropolitan line but there are no likely stations there.
|
|
|
Post by dagdave on Mar 22, 2019 10:51:33 GMT
What is 'ELL'? It's not in the abbreviation list. Given the mention of A-Stock I checked the Metropolitan line but there are no likely stations there. ELL is the East London Line, which is now integrated into the Overground. My small claim to fame is to have walked through the Brunel tunnel under the Thames a couple of times for survey work, both before and after it was refurbished. The TRV used to record it and I've got a couple photos of the TRV at New Cross Depot and Shoreditch somewhere. Access to the line was via St Mary's junction (now removed), between Aldgate East and Whitechapel on the District Line.
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 22, 2019 12:08:04 GMT
What is 'ELL'? Given the mention of A-Stock I checked the Metropolitan line but there are no likely stations there. The East London Line (and the Hammersmith & City) were branded as parts of the Metropolitan Line until 1990, and the ELL was operated by A stock from 1977 until it was closed in 2007 for conversion to (3-rail) Overground, apart from a short period in the late 1980s when D stock was used, whilst the A stock was being converted for one-person operation. Stock transfers of A stock between the main Met and the ELL were made via the Aldgate triangle and the aforementioned St Marys Curve. As A stock was slightly out of gauge for the latter, the signalling was configured to prevent trains being allowed on both tracks of the curve at once.
|
|
|
Post by AndrewPSSP on Mar 22, 2019 18:07:29 GMT
... Access to the line was via St Mary's junction (now removed), between Aldgate East and Whitechapel on the District Line. The last thing I heard of the curve was that a 'temporary wall' had been placed in front of it on the District side. Is the track still there are or has it been lifted?
|
|
|
Post by Dstock7080 on Mar 22, 2019 18:24:51 GMT
The last thing I heard of the curve was that a 'temporary wall' had been placed in front of it on the District side. Is the track still there are or has it been lifted? The pointwork on St. Mary’s junction has been plain-lined but track remains in situ towards the ELL, sometimes the tunnel lights illuminate this. If any wall exists it is towards the ELL end and not visable from the District end.
|
|
|
Post by t697 on Mar 22, 2019 19:53:54 GMT
I've noticed that driving style on London Overground (LO) Class 378 Electrostar trains seems to be extremely cautious or defensive, with very low accelerating and braking rates used. That's as well as the rather non-metro dwell times! The defensive driving seems much more so than with other Operators' Electrostars. Is there some reason to this?
|
|
|
Post by goldenarrow on Mar 22, 2019 20:19:42 GMT
I've noticed that driving style on London Overground (LO) Class 378 Electrostar trains seems to be extremely cautious or defensive, with very low accelerating and braking rates used. That's as well as the rather non-metro dwell times! The defensive driving seems much more so than with other Operators' Electrostars. Is there some reason to this? The Electrostar Traction Brake Controller (TBC) is a handle that has to be brought slightly up and then notching forward or backwards for braking and motoring respectively. In short this is far from ideal for short metro style stops that London Overground operate on as you have lesser amount of fine control with alot of shuffling around to correct too much or too little being applied. Compare the Electrostars with the Aventra controls (as seen on the 345's) which have a TBC not too dissimilar with the S stock with stepped acceleration and a variable brake scale which lends itself to multiple short adjustments to braking thus being better suited to metro style stops. The fact that LO crews do manage to do smooth flying stops on less restrictive parts of the LO network such as the Watford DC or North London line when the train controls aren't the most forgiving is a credit to their driver training standards. An example of a flying stop from a LO 378 this one working a North London Line service through Canonbury, certainly not a rarity.
|
|
|
Post by latecomer on Mar 22, 2019 23:49:13 GMT
In terms of acceleration, the 378(2)'s will always outpace the 1's when under the wires. Regarding dwell times many stations are so busy now it takes a lot of concentration under Driver Only Operation to safely dispatch the train and London Overground drivestyle policy also introduces slight pauses when the train is brought to a stand by the driver moving to brake step 3 and putting the directional switch to neutral before correct side door release.
Drivers will often approach and accelerate more slowly from busy platforms because so many passengers these days place themselves in positions of danger. Add to this the fact that on the East London Line the signal sections are extremely short and headway times so limited that with tpws at every signal no driver is going to push the limits and risk their license under restrictive aspects. If you are going at 40 mph and come across a single yellow around a curve you really don't have much time to bring the speed down for the subsequent red at certain locations. Platforms can also be extremely tight so again drivers are unlikely to come barrelling in so as to protect from that one 'off day' when a braking point may be slightly missed and an overrun occurs.
|
|
|
Post by t697 on Mar 23, 2019 5:35:22 GMT
Interesting stuff from goldenarrow and latecomer. Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by redbond on Mar 27, 2019 10:42:14 GMT
Drivers will often approach and accelerate more slowly from busy platforms because so many passengers these days place themselves in positions of danger. Add to this the fact that on the East London Line the signal sections are extremely short and headway times so limited that with tpws at every signal no driver is going to push the limits and risk their license under restrictive aspects. If you are going at 40 mph and come across a single yellow around a curve you really don't have much time to bring the speed down for the subsequent red at certain locations. Platforms can also be extremely tight so again drivers are unlikely to come barrelling in so as to protect from that one 'off day' when a braking point may be slightly missed and an overrun occurs. Absolutely. We are taught to drive defensively, given that every signal on the ELL has a TPWS Train Stop loop and about 90% have an associated overspeed loop on the approach to each signal. Due to the nature of the core, once we arrive in Silwood triangle heading northbound (from whichever origin), we are then pretty much running on yellows and reds all the way up. You can usually tell by Rotherhithe/Wapping if the driver in front is driving defensively or has green signals and adjust accordingly. I'll usually be a little bit more cautious until that point, then drive to the signals (ie I then can see multiple greens ahead of me). I can run to linespeed in the core route, but it all goes out of the window during rush hour or if I have a lot of passengers onboard. We are all creatures of habit, that's why it takes longer at Canada Water, Shadwell, Whitechapel and Shoreditch High Street. Passengers all enter and leave via the doors closest to the exit at their intended destination. This is what causes delays and extended dwell times. 20 people all trying to get in the second door of the third carriage when all other doors are clear? Yeh we know you're trying to be first out at Canada Water to run down the escalator to the Jubilee. Squeezing yourself in to the first set of doors of the second carriage - destination Shoreditch. If passengers were to use any free space on the train instead of trying to save 20 seconds at their destination walking along the platform, delays on the network would reduce drastically.
|
|
|
Post by AndrewPSSP on Mar 29, 2019 10:17:39 GMT
If passengers were to use any free space on the train instead of trying to save 20 seconds at their destination walking along the platform, delays on the network would reduce drastically. TfL could run a PR campaign to encourage this but we all know how effective the shouts of "move right down the platform/the car" are…
|
|
|
Post by whistlekiller2000 on Mar 29, 2019 10:38:00 GMT
If passengers were to use any free space on the train instead of trying to save 20 seconds at their destination walking along the platform, delays on the network would reduce drastically. TfL could run a PR campaign to encourage this but we all know how effective the shouts of "move right down the platform/the car" are… Making yet more announcements within the current pointless barrage of stuff levelled at punters will achieve all you say - absolutely nothing. I'm afraid the capital is so way past 'selfish and time driven' it won't take any notice of something like that.
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 29, 2019 10:42:59 GMT
If passengers were to use any free space on the train instead of trying to save 20 seconds at their destination walking along the platform, delays on the network would reduce drastically. It's not the 20 seconds walking along the platform, but the couple of minutes queuing at the escalator/ticket barrier/whatever the pinch point is. This is why providing multiple exits can reduce dwell times.
|
|