Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jan 26, 2019 14:52:48 GMT
The Central line tunnels require stock to be fitted with "high-lift" shoegear, and obviously at least some battery locos are also so fitted and there is no reason why stock with this cannot run on lines with conventionally placed juice rails. There must be some reason though why the high-lift shoe gear is not standard across all deep level stock - is it more difficult/expensive to install or maintain? Is it less reliable? Or is there something else I'm missing?
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Post by kesmet on Jan 26, 2019 22:14:50 GMT
The Central line only has the higher rail in the central section; outside of that the line uses conventional placement of the current rails. So the Central line stock can, fairly obviously, run on conventional lines because it does so at each end of the line. A thread on another board - which I found with a quick search through a famous web search engine - suggests that the mechanism is a spring-loaded affair which manages to hold the shoe itself flat to the surface of the rail. That suggests - and I am merely extrapolating now - that it is, in fact, more likely to go wrong, simply because there's more to it than standard shoe gear. In essence, my suspicion is that it's an unnecessary component for anything except the Central line, so to improve reliability (or rather, to avoid reliability deteriorating!) the high-lift capability is not fitted to any other stock. (I don't know if a link to another online forum would be frowned upon, but you can always search for "high lift shoe gear central line" as I did an find some information quite quickly.) I think the battery loco system is different, and may have more speed limits associated with it (less good contact with the current rails). Hopefully, someone who actually knows can respond and tell me how far of the mark my extrapolation really is
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Post by bananaman on Jan 27, 2019 15:06:31 GMT
I think the battery loco system is different, and may have more speed limits associated with it (less good contact with the current rails). IIRC, battery locos can lift all their shoes clear of the rails in order to avoid the loco's batteries livening up an otherwise dead section of track. That may have an impact on how the central line high-lift works.
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Post by t697 on Jan 27, 2019 18:18:31 GMT
The very simple shoegear LT designed and specified in the 1960s was used from 1967TS through to 1983TS. It wasn't intended for the Central line so didn't need the higher lift for the positive shoes. That said, 1967TS trains were operated on Woodford-Hainault for period, so either the shoegear was actually OK, or it was specially adjusted, or special versions were fitted, at least for stock transfers through the CLR sections of tunnel. The next tubes designed were then the 1992TS that still run on the Central and of course their specific shoegear is designed to suit. Subsequent fleets for Jubilee, Northern and Victoria all had new shoegear designs, but were not specified to be able to operate on the Central. There are other reasons why some other stocks can't be used on the Central, such as gauging profiles, so overall no reason to specify and hence limit the design of every tube fleet just in case it might go to the Central line. Now, I wonder whether the new Siemens design will fit the Central, or will a slightly tweaked version be built for that. On the Battery Locos, the full fleet has effectively the same shoegear.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jan 27, 2019 22:16:39 GMT
Now thats interesting, as in a previous thread a few years ago, somebody stated that the 72ts that transferred to Hainault didnt need high lift shoegear fitted.
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 27, 2019 23:23:07 GMT
Can’t remember if they ran under their own power or were dragged? The shoes may have been removed or strapped up if not.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jan 28, 2019 1:13:56 GMT
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Post by t697 on Jan 28, 2019 6:29:42 GMT
That seems to remind us that 67TS and 72TS at least were operated through the Central line tunnels for transfers to/from the Hainault loop. Their simple 'rocking link' shoegear only has one pivot, so the shoe is only flat to the top of the conductor rail at one specific rail height. Prolonged running at two different heights (central area and the rest) would lead to a peculiar wear pattern that might be of concern. All the other shoegear designs I'm aware of keep the shoe nominally flat to the rail at any rail height.
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Post by stapler on Jan 28, 2019 14:11:31 GMT
Were the 67TSs on the Loop not transferred via the Loughton Branch Junction - Leyton Station Junction line and a diesel shunter?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 28, 2019 15:39:15 GMT
Were the 67TSs on the Loop not transferred via the Loughton Branch Junction - Leyton Station Junction line and a diesel shunter? I have not heard of any BR locomotives adapted to couple to a 67TS - I understand from Wikipedia that initial transfer between Northumberland Park depot and the Hainault loop, where the 1967 stock was tested, was done by way of that connection, but using an LT battery locomotive rather than a diesel shunter. I'm not sure how long the connection between Northumberland Park Depot and the Lea Valley Lines remained in use after the Victoria Line was connected to the rest of the Tube at Finsbury Park, but the connection between the Lea Valley lines and the Central Line at Leyton closed in 1971, so at least from that date stock transfers between the Victoria and Central Lines had to be by way of the Piccadilly Line, via connections at Finsbury Park and Ruislip depot. I recall seeing a 1967 stock train at South Kensington in the late 1970s, presumably making such a transfer.
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Post by t697 on Jan 28, 2019 17:52:28 GMT
When we took a 72TS unit to Woodford in the 80's to exhibit with the 1986TS prototype units, it went via the central area tunnels. I don't recall whether it was battery loco hauled, but it might have been.
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Post by fish7373 on Jan 28, 2019 23:37:55 GMT
The Central line tunnels require stock to be fitted with "high-lift" shoegear, and obviously at least some battery locos are also so fitted and there is no reason why stock with this cannot run on lines with conventionally placed juice rails. There must be some reason though why the high-lift shoe gear is not standard across all deep level stock - is it more difficult/expensive to install or maintain? Is it less reliable? Or is there something else I'm missing? All battery Locos have high-lift shoegear and the TRV has battey loco shoegear all so there is a cut out on the back of the shoe beam, Spring loaded shoegear AIT 95 96 stock. there is a high conductor rail westbound on the Central line that`s why 60 tube stock lost the shoe beams even with the shoes strapped up dont no why so high. 1967/72 and 73 stock not high lift shoegear
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2019 8:17:23 GMT
I seem to recall a lot of problems with the 92TS shoegear in the early days. There's a "frangible link", designed to break rather than rip the shoebeam of in the event of a snagged shoe. Think it took a few attempts to get right - with the odd lost beam and a lot of missing shoes. Again from memory, the Central Line suffered more often from tipped conductor rail when the shoe caught on the side.
The missing shoes used to exacerbate the issue with ATO trains getting gapped at Ruislip. If there'd been wheelslip/slide the ATO could get lost as it encountered the points PAC at an unexpected location (counts wheel revolutions from last station) and stop the train ... right over the points gaps in the conductor rail. Meant dragging jumper leads out from the depot.
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Post by stapler on Jan 29, 2019 8:26:15 GMT
NF, you are quite right, it'd have been a battery loco running over BR metals with a pilotman. But by the time the Leyton connection was removed, weren't all the 67s off the Central anyway?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 29, 2019 10:20:17 GMT
by the time the Leyton connection was removed, weren't all the 67s off the Central anyway? The connection was removed in 1971, but 1967 stock were still running on the shuttle, turn-about with the 1960 stock, until 1984. www.flickr.com/photos/davidh73/43411142641 The Hainault-Woodford line, and the 1960 stock, were converted to manual operation in 1986. My first journey on the Hainault shuttle, in 1977 I think, was on a 67TS.
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Post by taylor on Apr 6, 2022 14:10:13 GMT
We know that the Central Line was converted to third and fourth-rail supply on 5 May 1940, nearly 40 years after opening. After the interesting discussion on High-lift shoe gear here, further research (see: www.clag.org.uk/3rd-4th.html, and : www.davros.org/rail/culg/central.html ) indicates that the fourth-rail transition points from normal 3” above running rail to 4.5” are at White City and Liverpool Street. Are there speed restrictions at these points or are they at the station stops? Given that the change was probably in conjunction with standardization in connection with the eastern and western extensions of the Central Line (several components of which had already been undertaken before the outbreak of WWII, e.g. the tunnels along the A12 and addition of the northern, now abandoned, goods lines from North Acton to Wood Lane) does anyone know why this work continued into the period of massive demands on manpower for war-related work? Maybe the question has been answered elsewhere. Incidentally, Peter Kay in LRR 108, 109 and 111 (just published) has furnished some fascinating photos of the Ealing and Sheperhed’s Bush Railway section of the Central Line hitherto not seen in the railway journals. A picture of the up platform at East Acton on p.123 of LRR 109 provides an interesting comparison with the works currently being undertaken there. [Moderators, maybe, if you have the time, you may wish to reactivate the original thread from Jan 2019 and amalgamate these queries therein.] done! Thx. T.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Apr 6, 2022 16:20:00 GMT
The very simple shoegear LT designed and specified in the 1960s was used from 1967TS through to 1983TS. It wasn't intended for the Central line so didn't need the higher lift for the positive shoes. That said, 1967TS trains were operated on Woodford-Hainault for period, so either the shoegear was actually OK, or it was specially adjusted, or special versions were fitted, at least for stock transfers through the CLR sections of tunnel. The next tubes designed were then the 1992TS that still run on the Central and of course their specific shoegear is designed to suit. Subsequent fleets for Jubilee, Northern and Victoria all had new shoegear designs, but were not specified to be able to operate on the Central. There are other reasons why some other stocks can't be used on the Central, such as gauging profiles, so overall no reason to specify and hence limit the design of every tube fleet just in case it might go to the Central line. Now, I wonder whether the new Siemens design will fit the Central, or will a slightly tweaked version be built for that. On the Battery Locos, the full fleet has effectively the same shoegear. The only TS that couldn’t run through the original CLR tunnels with shoe gear down was 38TS.
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Post by joshua on Apr 10, 2022 18:59:28 GMT
The Central line tunnels require stock to be fitted with "high-lift" shoegear, and obviously at least some battery locos are also so fitted and there is no reason why stock with this cannot run on lines with conventionally placed juice rails. There must be some reason though why the high-lift shoe gear is not standard across all deep level stock - is it more difficult/expensive to install or maintain? Is it less reliable? Or is there something else I'm missing? Why does the Central Line have "high-lift" shoe gear?
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Apr 10, 2022 19:05:18 GMT
The positive rail in the tunnel sections is set higher than normal on other lines, requiring the trains to be fitted with 'high-lift' shoegear.
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Post by joshua on Apr 10, 2022 19:21:25 GMT
Why is the Positive Rail higher than standard?
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Apr 10, 2022 20:16:54 GMT
Why is the Positive Rail higher than standard? Could it be that the CLR tunnels were narrower than later lines.
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Post by zbang on Apr 10, 2022 21:12:35 GMT
Not sure ow much would be gained by a higher positive rail even with a narrower tube, a sectional drawing might answer that.
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Post by taylor on Apr 11, 2022 13:11:33 GMT
Why is the Positive Rail higher than standard? As mentioned above and elsewhere, from 1900 until 1940 the Central London Railway, today’s Central Line operated with a single power rail initially energized at 550V DC situated equidistantly between the running rails. (Important to say that, because the CSLR power rail was also between the running rails but off-set to a non centred position ~384mm left of the right-hand running rail looking towards the City. From the drawings I’ve seen the contact surface of the CSLR conductor rail was about 15mm below running rail level. Corrections welcome). Back to the Central: Although executed between stations with a diameter of 3.562m, tunnels built nearer to stations had a diameter of 3.51m. In stations the positioning of the running rails and platforms placed the former nearer to the wall opposite the platform. This effect of this is discernable at some central London stations. Also, I believe that the widening of the diameter for the curves at both Shepherds Bush and between Bank and Liverpool Street was not as generous as with later lines. Also remember, that CLR stock (loco hauled from the beginning) was shorter than the later ‘standard’ tube stock that had a longer longitudinal secant line on curves and thus overhang. Taken together these factors mean that if the positive conductor rail had been laid at standard height in a 3.51m tunnel (405mm from the inner edge of the adjacent running rail and 76mm above it), there could be less than 36mm between a tunnel ring and the outer edge of that power rail. Standard stock was operated on the 3-rail system to May 1940 and then converted to the LPTB standard being built west of North Acton and east of Liverpool Street. But that meant installing the positive rail between White City and Liverpool Street bat about 38mm over the standard 76mm to give an overall surface height of 114mm above the running rail and thus sufficient air-insulation to prevent inadvertent flashovers.
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Post by spsmiler on Apr 13, 2022 19:42:06 GMT
As mentioned above and elsewhere, from 1900 until 1940 the Central London Railway, today’s Central Line operated with a single power rail initially energized at 550V DC situated equidistantly between the running rails. (Important to say that, because the CSLR power rail was also between the running rails but off-set to a non centred position ~384mm left of the right-hand running rail looking towards the City. From the drawings I’ve seen the contact surface of the CSLR conductor rail was about 15mm below running rail level. Corrections welcome). Back to the Central: Although executed between stations with a diameter of 3.562m, tunnels built nearer to stations had a diameter of 3.51m. In stations the positioning of the running rails and platforms placed the former nearer to the wall opposite the platform. This effect of this is discernable at some central London stations. Also, I believe that the widening of the diameter for the curves at both Shepherds Bush and between Bank and Liverpool Street was not as generous as with later lines. Also remember, that CLR stock (loco hauled from the beginning) was shorter than the later ‘standard’ tube stock that had a longer longitudinal secant line on curves and thus overhang. Taken together these factors mean that if the positive conductor rail had been laid at standard height in a 3.51m tunnel (405mm from the inner edge of the adjacent running rail and 76mm above it), there could be less than 36mm between a tunnel ring and the outer edge of that power rail. Standard stock was operated on the 3-rail system to May 1940 and then converted to the LPTB standard being built west of North Acton and east of Liverpool Street. But that meant installing the positive rail between White City and Liverpool Street bat about 38mm over the standard 76mm to give an overall surface height of 114mm above the running rail and thus sufficient air-insulation to prevent inadvertent flashovers. At one time this style of railway electrification was popular with model railways, eg: Hornby Doublo, Trix Twin, and others. Its a shame that none of them made models of the Central London Railway's trains. The Central London was not the only British passenger railway to feature this style of three rail electrification system - the Southend Pier Railway and the Liverpool Overhead Railway (LOR) come to mind, there may have been others as well. The LOR actually opened before the CLR (in 1893) and it also later relocated the power rail to the outside of the running rails. This was done so that through services using electric trains could be possible with the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway. Curiously, when the LOR relocated its power rail it retained the existing power rail to use as electrical return, albeit only for a few decades. Information source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Overhead_RailwayWith track sharing in mind, when the Central London Railway (CLR) service to Ealing Broadway opened in 1920 its three rail electric trains travelled on Great Western Railway tracks which were also used by GWR steam trains. But by the time that London Transport converted what had (by then) become known as the Central Line to the four rail system the GWR had built what proved to be a short lived dedicated pair of tracks for its trains alongside the tracks used by the electric tube trains.
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Post by quex on Apr 13, 2022 21:07:10 GMT
The Central London was not the only British passenger railway to feature this style of three rail electrification system - the Southend Pier Railway and the Liverpool Overhead Railway (LOR) come to mind, there may have been others as well. The Waterloo & City, too, originally used a centre third rail. I don't think the Drain has a high fourth rail, but are the W&C 92TS also high-lift shoegear fitted?
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