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Post by jamesb on Nov 9, 2018 23:10:01 GMT
I saw a train getting taken out of service at Stratford this evening. I had nothing but admiration for the driver.
Crowded eastbound platform, crowded train. Close doors, orange light stays on outside a car, open/re-close the doors. Ask for assistance from platform staff. Check the doors. Platform staff walking up and down outside of train (? reports of youth running through the train), talking into their handheld radios. In the meantime, a train waiting behind.
Problem appears to be resolved, close doors, problem still there.
Tell passengers that the train is out of service.
Walk to back of train to do something in the rear cab. Orange light stays on.
Passengers on platform getting irritated, difficult to walk up yellow line to get back to the front cab.
I watched very carefully how it was handled, and the driver looked as cool as a cucumber throughout.
I am sure that such instances aren't uncommon, and the train ended up driving away out of service with the yellow light still on (presumably something had to be isolated to allow this to happen).
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Nov 9, 2018 23:36:49 GMT
If you haven't already, submit this positive feedback through the TfL website as well and it will make its way to the driver concerned, and they will surely appreciate it.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Nov 10, 2018 10:00:22 GMT
There's a door interlock override switch, the train goes out of service with a member of staff (usually a CSA) in the car with the fault and if any of the doors come open they pull the passenger emergency alarm.
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Post by Chris M on Nov 10, 2018 11:28:46 GMT
So what happens if there isn't a member of staff available (e.g. it would take the station below minimum staffing levels)?
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Post by scheduler on Nov 10, 2018 17:56:34 GMT
So what happens if there isn't a member of staff available (e.g. it would take the station below minimum staffing levels)? Hope the DRM shows up fast. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Nov 10, 2018 19:35:08 GMT
Unless the Network Incident Response Manager (NIRM) authorised a "waiver" which would allow the train to be moved without another member of staff on board then it stays where it is until assistance arrives.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Nov 10, 2018 19:43:36 GMT
Unless the Network Incident Response Manager (NIRM) authorised a "waiver" which would allow the train to be moved without another member of staff on board then it stays where it is until assistance arrives. NIRMs aren't permitted to issue waivers. The only person who can authorise a real-time deviation to the Rule Book is the Senior Operating Officer. (Concessions can be sought in advance for specific planned circumstances.) |
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Post by jamesb on Nov 10, 2018 21:22:07 GMT
I don't think that there was a member of staff on board the car with the orange light when the train departed, but the doors appeared to be shut.
The train only had to get as far as Leytonstone initially (2 stops away), plus there was a busy train stuck behind it.
The train passed through Woodford as I was waiting for my Hainault train, with the orange light disappearing off into the darkness.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Nov 11, 2018 9:41:07 GMT
Unless the Network Incident Response Manager (NIRM) authorised a "waiver" which would allow the train to be moved without another member of staff on board then it stays where it is until assistance arrives. NIRMs aren't permitted to issue waivers. The only person who can authorise a real-time deviation to the Rule Book is the Senior Operating Officer. (Concessions can be sought in advance for specific planned circumstances.) Indeed, its the SOO not the NIRM although with the way LUL like to shuffle things around it will be another abbreviation in a few years' time. |
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Post by drainrat on Nov 11, 2018 17:00:05 GMT
NIRMs aren't permitted to issue waivers. The only person who can authorise a real-time deviation to the Rule Book is the Senior Operating Officer. (Concessions can be sought in advance for specific planned circumstances.) Indeed, its the SOO not the NIRM although with the way LUL like to shuffle things around it will be another abbreviation in a few years' time. Use of the good old QRA |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Nov 11, 2018 20:31:33 GMT
Most SOO waivers use a Dynamic Risk Assessment; i.e. one that was done at the time based on experience, knowledge and likely outcome. No scoring of the risks/benefits is undertaken. A Quantified Risk Assessment, or QRA actualy puts some science behind the analysis working out freuency and severity, coming up with a score and then the cost of mitigating the risk versus the value mitigation will deliver. This generally gives you a cost and outcome in terms of 'value of lives saved' and a scoring in line with the ALARP principle, which generally falls into one of the cagetogries of Unacceptable, Tolerable, or Broadly Acceptable. |
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Post by drainrat on Nov 12, 2018 14:43:36 GMT
Indeed, however, open to abuse, as we've found over the years 🙄 I remember the first one being 'justified' in mid 2000s, sitting on the oversight committee that reviewed the QRA, which was carried out north end of the Picc. It was/is flawed, which is me being polite, very difficult to take someone involved in the processes away from them and be unbiased, as there are career consequences involved too, as a good friend of mine found out when he conducted a QRA on the district that wasn't the outcome the managing director at the time wanted.
I really could give plenty of examples, bottom line is this, if a decision is made after a QRA is carried out and I am still not convinced of it being safe for my passengers or me, then DRM, NIRM, SOO, COO etc. can come along and try bully me, but won't be happening, simple as that 😉
Add: It was the 'ALARP' principle that brought us Chancery Lane derailment, as opposed to a fleet being fully investigated after 2 incidents in depots had flagged an issue. I remember the Chief Rolling Stock Engineer saying how he felt he was being made to 'fall on his sword' for saying the fleet was running due to ALARP principle
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class411
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Post by class411 on Nov 12, 2018 15:26:24 GMT
ALARP?
As Long As ... perhaps.
(Reasonably Possible?)
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Post by drainrat on Nov 12, 2018 15:43:16 GMT
As Low as Reasonably practical
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Nov 12, 2018 22:36:22 GMT
Close, but not quite; it's Practicable.
The judgement of Edwards vs National Coal Board in 1949 which introduced the term defined it as:
‘Reasonably practicable is a narrower term than ‘physically possible’ and implies that a computation must be made... in which the quantum of risk is placed in one scale and the sacrifice involved in the measures necessary for averting the risk (whether in time, trouble or money) is placed in the other and that, if it be shown that there is a great disproportion between them – the risk being insignificant in relation to the sacrifice – the person upon whom the obligation is imposed discharges the onus which is upon him’.
To summarise, something may be practical but not practicable due to the scale of the mitigation (e.g. cost) versus the benefit.
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Post by jamesb on Nov 13, 2018 7:54:45 GMT
Thanks for the insight into how decisions get taken.
Going back to the train at Stratford, what would the alternatives have been to allowing the train to depart without a member of staff in the affected car?
Part suspending the line and evacuating the train behind, pending the arrival of an extra member of staff?
Allowing a member of staff to depart with the defective train, and closing [the London Underground bits of] Stratford station because it fell below minimum staffing levels?
Taking the above, vs. moving the train 2 stops forward to the central platform at Leytonstone, it seemed a reasonable decision to my untrained eye.
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Post by superteacher on Nov 13, 2018 8:05:19 GMT
Thanks for the insight into how decisions get taken. Going back to the train at Stratford, what would the alternatives have been to allowing the train to depart without a member of staff in the affected car? Part suspending the line and evacuating the train behind, pending the arrival of an extra member of staff? Allowing a member of staff to depart with the defective train, and closing [the London Underground bits of] Stratford station because it fell below minimum staffing levels? Taking the above, vs. moving the train 2 stops forward to the central platform at Leytonstone, it seemed a reasonable decision to my untrained eye. It’s a bit difficult to isolate the Central line due to the cross platform interchanges. |
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Post by brigham on Nov 13, 2018 8:33:10 GMT
Where is the risk in running out-of-service stock with the doors open?
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Post by Chris M on Nov 13, 2018 8:36:45 GMT
Where is the risk in running out-of-service stock with the doors open? If the doors are open passing through a station then someone might get on it, especially if it is stationary adjacent to a platform at any point. At least that's my guess. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Nov 13, 2018 9:56:03 GMT
Stratford isn't a Section 12 station and therefore doesn't have a minimum staffing level.
The only alternative to having a member of staff on the faulty car is for the SOO to issue a waiver.
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Post by robv on Nov 13, 2018 20:28:03 GMT
Stratford isn't a Section 12 station and therefore doesn't have a minimum staffing level. The only alternative to having a member of staff on the faulty car is for the SOO to issue a waiver. What’s SOO ? |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Nov 13, 2018 20:41:24 GMT
Judging by earlier comments, I'd suggest Senior Operating Officer.
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Post by hobbayne on Nov 13, 2018 23:23:23 GMT
Its possible that it was a rear cab door FTC. The driver would not get a door closed visual, but would not need staff to ride if it was only partially opened.
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Post by Chris M on Nov 14, 2018 0:37:47 GMT
The OP clearly noted that one of the orange lights that illuminate when the passenger doors are open remained illuminated on one car - would a cab door give that indication? They didn't say which car it was, but as they didn't say "first" or "last" it's more likely to be a middle one.
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Post by superteacher on Nov 14, 2018 6:45:03 GMT
The OP clearly noted that one of the orange lights that illuminate when the passenger doors are open remained illuminated on one car - would a cab door give that indication? They didn't say which car it was, but as they didn't say "first" or "last" it's more likely to be a middle one. I believe that when a cab isn’t live, the door forms part of the usual train doors circuit, meaning that the orange light would be illuminated if the door wasn’t closed. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2018 18:17:31 GMT
The OP clearly noted that one of the orange lights that illuminate when the passenger doors are open remained illuminated on one car - would a cab door give that indication? They didn't say which car it was, but as they didn't say "first" or "last" it's more likely to be a middle one. I believe that when a cab isn’t live, the door forms part of the usual train doors circuit, meaning that the orange light would be illuminated if the door wasn’t closed. Correct. |
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Post by drainrat on Nov 15, 2018 14:28:15 GMT
Indeed, it does
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Post by jamesb on Nov 16, 2018 4:40:01 GMT
It was about the third car if I remember correctly
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Post by commuter on Nov 18, 2018 10:43:09 GMT
There's a door interlock override switch, the train goes out of service with a member of staff (usually a CSA) in the car with the fault and if any of the doors come open they pull the passenger emergency alarm. FWIW a member of staff is only required in the car if a door is physically open and cannot be closed. In the event an outside door indicator light (and/or corresponding indication in the cab) is illuminated but all doors are physically closed, a staff member is not needed to travel with said train. |
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