|
|
Post by SunSeeker on Mar 25, 2020 4:57:03 GMT
I think they will come to feel that is a great decision, hope aslef follow suit. As an RMT member I don't think it's a great decision at all, but unfortunately not much choice due to the current situation so I understand why they accepted it. Personally I would have preferred the other deal with some extra days off, but hopefully after the whole virus is long gone they can still try to get some movement with working hours but somehow I doubt anything will change for another 3 years. |
|
|
|
Post by brigham on Mar 25, 2020 8:25:30 GMT
At least the strike is off.
I was expecting the railway equivalent of 'Bevin Boys' to be conscripted!
(Who is the 'Minister for Labour' in the current government?)
|
|
|
|
Post by superteacher on Mar 25, 2020 8:49:18 GMT
At least the strike is off. I was expecting the railway equivalent of 'Bevin Boys' to be conscripted! (Who is the 'Minister for Labour' in the current government?) And for those with less historical knowledge than you, here is some info about "Bevin Boys." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bevin_Boys |
|
rincew1nd
Administrator
Junior Under-wizzard of quiz
Posts: 10,286 
|
Post by rincew1nd on Mar 25, 2020 19:04:33 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by philthetube on Mar 25, 2020 21:04:41 GMT
I think they will come to feel that is a great decision, hope aslef follow suit. As an RMT member I don't think it's a great decision at all, but unfortunately not much choice due to the current situation so I understand why they accepted it. Personally I would have preferred the other deal with some extra days off, but hopefully after the whole virus is long gone they can still try to get some movement with working hours but somehow I doubt anything will change for another 3 years. I think that what was a poor deal became an amazing one, there is going to be no cash about once this is all over, imagine the debts being run up by both TFL and the Government, I can see there being wage freezes for years. Had this not already been offered then there is no way that anything more than a one year one would be talked about by TFL. At least staff have the assurance that living standards will not go down in the next four years, and it is possible that inflation will rocket after this is over. Only time will tell for certain though. |
|
|
|
Post by Dstock7080 on Aug 17, 2020 17:20:00 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by revupminster on Aug 17, 2020 19:41:08 GMT
With Londoners not travelling to work and the night time economy collapsed who's going to notice? I can see the night tube being cut first. The underground in terms of patronage has been set back 20 years.
The scientists panicked the government with predictions of 250,000 deaths, 125,000 this winter. The hostile to government civil service, staying at home, using figures for deaths in England, that Scotland and Wales did not, made the situation look bad. Maybe if the unions said it was safe to travel the passengers might return but they are not interested in helping the government. Teachers and universities have been anti government and now schools will have record results this year based on teacher assessment. All the anti government comes from employees in what was secure jobs with gold plated pensions.
|
|
|
|
Post by sawb on Aug 17, 2020 20:17:18 GMT
With Londoners not travelling to work and the night time economy collapsed who's going to notice? I can see the night tube being cut first. The underground in terms of patronage has been set back 20 years. Those people returning to work in September, as well as school children who use the underground, coupled with day trippers now they are returning (albeit in low numbers for now) |
|
|
|
Post by revupminster on Aug 18, 2020 7:02:40 GMT
With Londoners not travelling to work and the night time economy collapsed who's going to notice? I can see the night tube being cut first. The underground in terms of patronage has been set back 20 years. Those people returning to work in September, as well as school children who use the underground, coupled with day trippers now they are returning (albeit in low numbers for now) The unions have convinced the travellers it is not safe. If training in a cab is deemed unsafe with two people, trainer and trainee, who are known can be tested, wear face shields, contact traced whereas Joe Public has to travel cheek by jowl with strangers. A lot of people will never return to their offices. The one thing the private sector is good at is adapting whereas government moves with the speed of a tortoise. Or are we saying with the furlough scheme ending private sector employees are going to be forced back to work while state employees do what they like. |
|
|
|
Post by stapler on Aug 18, 2020 7:09:43 GMT
Rev, I agree; think the London office market, swanky post modern buildings and a Pret on every street corner, is already a thing of the past. And with quarantine and the brakes on tourism through civil aviation curbs isn't that 60% of ridership already?
|
|
|
|
Post by toby on Aug 18, 2020 7:29:25 GMT
If the pandemic has required the local government to follow national government rules in exchange for payment, then the union should go to the national government to alter the rules. It may be a brick wall but at least it's the right one. revupminster. Yes, if the people knew, which they don't. They won't know about the setup for the drivers, we'll barely know about the civil service. |
|
|
|
Post by superteacher on Aug 18, 2020 10:25:55 GMT
With Londoners not travelling to work and the night time economy collapsed who's going to notice? I can see the night tube being cut first. The underground in terms of patronage has been set back 20 years. The scientists panicked the government with predictions of 250,000 deaths, 125,000 this winter. The hostile to government civil service, staying at home, using figures for deaths in England, that Scotland and Wales did not, made the situation look bad. Maybe if the unions said it was safe to travel the passengers might return but they are not interested in helping the government. Teachers and universities have been anti government and now schools will have record results this year based on teacher assessment. All the anti government comes from employees in what was secure jobs with gold plated pensions. I will say that such sweeping statements aren't very helpful. As a teacher myself, I have been very pro returning to school; however, I agree that the union stance may have been different. But it's a good idea to avoid turning this into a pro / anti government debate, as it's not as simple as that. MOD HAT ON: We already have a thread for Covid implications for London's transport. Let's not replicate it here.
|
|
|
|
Post by revupminster on Aug 18, 2020 12:15:22 GMT
To keep the post on track; lets say TFL announced 7000 job cuts (to pluck a figure out of the air) today. The three main unions would announce strike action in days.
Or if a government department is disbanded we know the civil servants will just play musical chairs.
|
|
|
|
Post by aslefshrugged on Aug 18, 2020 12:27:27 GMT
To keep the post on track; lets say TFL announced 7000 job cuts (to pluck a figure out of the air) today. The three main unions would announce strike action in days. Or if a government department is disbanded we know the civil servants will just play musical chairs. Except they wouldn't be able to announce strike action without a ballot first. That usually takes two months from the initial call for strike action going from a branch or branches to announcing the result and even then the union has to give 14 days notice of any strike. This is why ASLEF are holding the ballot now, if the vote is for strikes it is valid for six months (I think?) so if management do try to change our terms & conditions without negotiation we can call a strike before they have a chance to impose them. |
|
|
|
Post by brigham on Aug 18, 2020 12:36:57 GMT
ASLEF was always at the forefront of striking during the '70s and '80s.
Every time ASLEF called a strike, the road transport industry announced a dividend!
|
|
|
|
Post by aslefshrugged on Aug 18, 2020 13:06:50 GMT
ASLEF was always at the forefront of striking during the '70s and '80s. Every time ASLEF called a strike, the road transport industry announced a dividend! Indeed and NUR were the moderates, they seem to have swapped at some point. Apart from local disputes and the three Boxing Day strikes (2010, 2011, 2012) ASLEF didn't have a strike on the Tube between 2002 (Private Public Partnership) and 2015 (Night Tube). |
|
|
|
Post by revupminster on Aug 18, 2020 15:19:33 GMT
That great thinker Stan Lee said "With great power comes great responsibility". Also known as the Peter Parker Principle (not the old BR Chairman).
|
|
|
|
Post by aslefshrugged on Aug 18, 2020 18:12:33 GMT
Indeed, it would be very irresponsible of LU management, TfL, the Mayor or the Government to attempt to change the terms and conditions of the staff without negotiations.
|
|
|
|
Post by johnlinford on Aug 18, 2020 21:24:19 GMT
Except that in the last few months many in the private sector have had the conversations along the lines of "would you like redundancy or a significant paycut and reduced working week?", if not their employers collapsing... I think in the face of many being made jobless and having pay cuts unions might have a harder time keeping the public on side that their members deserve better than everyone else - even though I agree that is the job of a union to do!
|
|
|
|
Post by tubetraveller on Aug 18, 2020 22:09:54 GMT
Except that in the last few months many in the private sector have had the conversations along the lines of "would you like redundancy or a significant paycut and reduced working week?", if not their employers collapsing... I think in the face of many being made jobless and having pay cuts unions might have a harder time keeping the public on side that their members deserve better than everyone else - even though I agree that is the job of a union to do! When have the public ever been on the union's side? The public can't be expected to keep up to date with TfL's employee relations. News outlets have no interest in reporting on disputes until a few days before a strike is due As far as Joe Public is concerned, everyone in TfL earns 100k and strikes at the drop of a hat |
|
|
|
Post by superteacher on Aug 19, 2020 11:33:56 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by brigham on Aug 20, 2020 7:40:44 GMT
It would be a good time for a week-long strike.
Arrangements could be made to carry out mass driver training on a railway completely devoid of passengers and services!
|
|
|
|
Post by aslefshrugged on Aug 20, 2020 9:03:51 GMT
It would be a good time for a week-long strike. Arrangements could be made to carry out mass driver training on a railway completely devoid of passengers and services! LOL First a week wouldn't be long enough, trainees need four weeks minimum driving on the line in order to qualify Second there's no "in-cab" training at the moment, they are waiting until safety measures can be introduced (see my post Aug 13, 2020 at 7:14pm on the Coronavirus thread) Third the IOps would be out on strike along with the rest of us so there'd be no one to carry out the training Next! |
|
|
|
Post by brigham on Aug 20, 2020 17:37:04 GMT
The point made by Revupminster earlier continues to be ignored.
If training in a cab is deemed unsafe with two people, trainer and trainee, who are known, can be tested, wear face shields,(and can be) contact traced, then it is quite obvious that operating the railway with turn-up-and-go, unscreened passengers, making unscheduled journeys, is absolutely out of the question.
|
|
|
|
Post by superteacher on Aug 20, 2020 17:57:20 GMT
The point made by Revupminster earlier continues to be ignored. If training in a cab is deemed unsafe with two people, trainer and trainee, who are known, can be tested, wear face shields,(and can be) contact traced, then it is quite obvious that operating the railway with turn-up-and-go, unscreened passengers, making unscheduled journeys, is absolutely out of the question. Ignored? That’s a bit presumptuous. Maybe people haven’t seen the post, or like you don’t have an answer to it. The rules governing working conditions are very different to those governing the general public. In a cab, there will be close contact for a sustained period of time. |
|
|
|
Post by revupminster on Aug 20, 2020 18:15:47 GMT
I am afraid the unions and civil service would do anything to show the government in a bad light as they have done throughout the virus as did Sadiq Khan until he realised he needed the passengers back.
I worked through the 70s/80.s strikes, I was in the TSSA and they never went on strike, they never had a militant chairman (then) but had a lot of influence in the Labour Party via the Fabian society. The outcome of these strikes was the removal of guards. No grade is a job for life as it used to be. Drivers did not want to drive trains for forty years but one person operation killed the line of promotion.
I've often thought of lining up my hat badges, take a photo, for a quiz as to what grade they were for.
|
|
|
|
Post by aslefshrugged on Aug 20, 2020 18:18:10 GMT
The point made by Revupminster earlier continues to be ignored. If training in a cab is deemed unsafe with two people, trainer and trainee, who are known, can be tested, wear face shields,(and can be) contact traced, then it is quite obvious that operating the railway with turn-up-and-go, unscreened passengers, making unscheduled journeys, is absolutely out of the question. Training in the cab hasn't been deemed unsafe, rather LU don't have the PPE or anyone to do the testing and there would have to be a trial before it could be rolled out across the combine. The IOp and trainee will spend hours together in the cab each day, passengers spend considerably less time in close proximity with other passengers |
|
|
|
Post by aslefshrugged on Aug 20, 2020 18:47:00 GMT
I am afraid the unions and civil service would do anything to show the government in a bad light as they have done throughout the virus as did Sadiq Khan until he realised he needed the passengers back. I worked through the 70s/80.s strikes, I was in the TSSA and they never went on strike, they never had a militant chairman (then) but had a lot of influence in the Labour Party via the Fabian society. The outcome of these strikes was the removal of guards. No grade is a job for life as it used to be. Drivers did not want to drive trains for forty years but one person operation killed the line of promotion. I've often thought of lining up my hat badges, take a photo, for a quiz as to what grade they were for. The unions, civil service and Sadiq Khan don't need to do anything to show the government in a bad light, this government has made a total mess of everything they've touched from Coronavirus to exam results. Incompetent, dishonest and utterly corrupt. Once one person operation was introduced on the Victoria Line in 1968 expansion to other lines was inevitable. OPO was proposed for the Circle Line in 1972 but wasn't introduced until 1984 because of union opposition so clearly the decision was taken BEFORE the strikes of the 70s/80s rather than a result of the strikes. TSSA held a joint strike with RMT in 2010 over ticket office closures, their first strike on the Tube since 1926 but they were fighting a losing battle. Any mentions of badges always makes me think of Alfonso Bedoya in "The Treasure of the Sierra Madre"... |
|
|
|
Post by revupminster on Aug 20, 2020 18:47:14 GMT
The point made by Revupminster earlier continues to be ignored. If training in a cab is deemed unsafe with two people, trainer and trainee, who are known, can be tested, wear face shields,(and can be) contact traced, then it is quite obvious that operating the railway with turn-up-and-go, unscreened passengers, making unscheduled journeys, is absolutely out of the question. Ignored? That’s a bit presumptuous. Maybe people haven’t seen the post, or like you don’t have an answer to it. The rules governing working conditions are very different to those governing the general public. In a cab, there will be close contact for a sustained period of time. When drivers change crews or change ends, do they disinfect all the surfaces a previous person touched? Is it the responsibility of the driver taking over? Has riding in the back cab been banned? Bus drivers who only have fleeting contact with customers seemed to at more risk. |
|
|
|
Post by aslefshrugged on Aug 21, 2020 0:02:34 GMT
Ignored? That’s a bit presumptuous. Maybe people haven’t seen the post, or like you don’t have an answer to it. The rules governing working conditions are very different to those governing the general public. In a cab, there will be close contact for a sustained period of time. When drivers change crews or change ends, do they disinfect all the surfaces a previous person touched? Is it the responsibility of the driver taking over? Has riding in the back cab been banned? Bus drivers who only have fleeting contact with customers seemed to at more risk. London Underground clean the cabs with a disinfectant that lasts for several days so drivers don't have to but there are still some who take their own disinfectant. Wearing gloves is another precaution. Back cab rides are still available. Bus drivers will get passed by numerous passengers for seconds at a time but they've filled in the gaps around the Oyster readers and covered the holes in the screen they're pretty much isolated in the cabs. An IOp and a trainee spending several hours together in a cab is entirely different. |
|
