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Post by Dstock7080 on Sept 4, 2018 21:51:51 GMT
Can we talk to the operator via the alarms? That depends on the stock, but I believe the 1996 stock has that capability. Obviously the driver might not be in a position to respond right away though. I believe all Stock now in service has the 'talk-back' facility. |
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Post by philthetube on Sept 5, 2018 2:37:17 GMT
Shouldn't happen while the train is moving though.
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Post by grahamhewett on Sept 5, 2018 12:00:22 GMT
There's plenty of speculation about the reasons on various railway Facebook groups. Some conversations this morning on a "big railway" group wonder how they used slam-door stock for so many years! without checking figures I suggested that there's possibly been more incidents of passengers being dragged along by sliding door stock than there ever were with slam doors. Maybe people were more sensible in earlier years? And it was I believe 1956 when the last hand-worked sliding doors disappeared from the Underground. It'll be interesting to see what the cause of this one is. Slam door stock frequently travelled with doors open. Back in the late seventies/early eighties, I commuted from a station with a curved platform. I'd travel at the front of the train because it was generally less crowded. The station exit was about two carriages away from the other end. I would say that 50% of the time when I alighted from a twelve or thirteen carriage train at night, I'd need to kick at least one door closed as the train departed. Most of these were on the 'second catch', so would probably not have allowed egress if anyone had leant on them, but occasionally the doors were fully open. Without stationing multiple porters (yes, they were thing back then), it would have been impossible to dispatch trains in a timely manner and ensure that all doors were correctly closed. Certainly, I recall (showing my age here) the last hand operated Circle stock travelling round with the doors open in the summer heat - much to the terror of my mother who felt that her three year old might fall out. No one bothered to close the doors, however. As to slam door stock, it "often" left Waterloo with a door on the catch - usually corrected when someone alighted but I never recall a train being held for that purpose. |
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Post by up1989 on Sept 6, 2018 10:57:22 GMT
Can we talk to the operator via the alarms? That depends on the stock, but I believe the 1996 stock has that capability. Obviously the driver might not be in a position to respond right away though. I believe all Stock now in service has the 'talk-back' facility. The 72 stock on the bakerloo don't have talk back facility |
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Post by commuter on Sept 8, 2018 16:44:08 GMT
A briefing yesterday (posted on another forum) states that the train was inspected and no wrong side failure was found with the interlock/or other door closing process; however the train is still under investigation as to why only some (not all) doors were open.
I’m aware that on some stocks it is possible for the driver to “flick” the open buttons and not all the doors open.
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Post by drainrat on Sept 21, 2018 11:00:00 GMT
A briefing yesterday (posted on another forum) states that the train was inspected and no wrong side failure was found with the interlock/or other door closing process; however the train is still under investigation as to why only some (not all) doors were open. I’m aware that on some stocks it is possible for the driver to “flick” the open buttons and not all the doors open. So, if this is true, then it was a door irregularity, which explains why it's still being investigated, still. Speaking to several Jubbly drivers, procedure was supposedly carried out, and it seems clear the announcement was mistaken, the driver was only aware of no pilot light and the procedural announcement was heard as "the driver knew the doors were open......"....... This always had the potential when they changed the procedure 10+ yrs ago 😡 |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Sept 21, 2018 12:39:25 GMT
A briefing yesterday (posted on another forum) states that the train was inspected and no wrong side failure was found with the interlock/or other door closing process; however the train is still under investigation as to why only some (not all) doors were open. I’m aware that on some stocks it is possible for the driver to “flick” the open buttons and not all the doors open. So, if this is true, then it was a door irregularity, which explains why it's still being investigated, still. Speaking to several Jubbly drivers, procedure was supposedly carried out, and it seems clear the announcement was mistaken, the driver was only aware of no pilot light and the procedural announcement was heard as "the driver knew the doors were open......"....... This always had the potential when they changed the procedure 10+ yrs ago 😡 |
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Post by Chris M on Sept 21, 2018 12:54:42 GMT
AIUI there are two components to the incident. The first is that at a normal station stop some, but not all, of the doors opened on the correct side of the train for reasons that were not clear at the time (the "door irregularity"). It has not been made public whether this investigation is complete.
In an attempt to resolve this issue and/or to allow the train to move off the driver carried out one or more procedures, as result of which the train moved with at least some of the doors that did open at Finchely Road still open en-route to West Hampstead. Doors did not open on the wrong side - they opened on the correct (left) side at Finchley Road and didn't close, but the platform at West Hampstead is on the right hand side hence on arrival there they were open on the wrong side.
What the driver did, whether they did it correctly, and whether they were authorised to do it is or was also under investigation, but separately. I would be slightly surprised if this investigation had not been completed, but the outcome has not been made public (nor would I necessarily expect it to be).
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Post by drainrat on Sept 21, 2018 13:22:05 GMT
So, if this is true, then it was a door irregularity, which explains why it's still being investigated, still. Speaking to several Jubbly drivers, procedure was supposedly carried out, and it seems clear the announcement was mistaken, the driver was only aware of no pilot light and the procedural announcement was heard as "the driver knew the doors were open......"....... This always had the potential when they changed the procedure 10+ yrs ago 😡 Ok, but as a driver who was also a TU senior safety rep at the time the new procedure was proposed and subsequently imposed, there is no speculation or hearsay at all, this was an incident no less than "WE TOLD YOU SO!!!" I will also add that shortly after the T/Ops procedure was replaced with the current one, a Bakerloo driver was disciplined for insisting on going back and checking whole trains doors closed during AM peak when the pilot light went out and didn't come back on,. Knowing both the stock and procedures involved, the ambiguity of the whole thing leads to much speculation among drivers and contention during block training, basically, the T/op decides, thus a game of roulette ensues.....are they open.....or.....aren't they 🤔 |
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Post by drainrat on Sept 21, 2018 13:42:21 GMT
What the driver did, whether they did it correctly, and whether they were authorised to do it is or was also under investigation, but separately. I would be slightly surprised if this investigation had not been completed, but the outcome has not been made public (nor would I necessarily expect it to be). IMHO, I would think the Formal investigation (FIR) has yet to agree terms, as the TU reps involvement is agreed by the TUs. Procedure is very much at the forefront of the TU reps minds and once it was established, then depot report is considered. But can say the investigation is still going |
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Post by MoreToJack on Sept 21, 2018 22:44:23 GMT
Let's keep the speculation and heresay out of this please. Ok, but as a driver who was also a TU senior safety rep at the time the new procedure was proposed and subsequently imposed, there is no speculation or hearsay at all, this was an incident no less than "WE TOLD YOU SO!!!" I will also add that shortly after the T/Ops procedure was replaced with the current one, a Bakerloo driver was disciplined for insisting on going back and checking whole trains doors closed during AM peak when the pilot light went out and didn't come back on,. Knowing both the stock and procedures involved, the ambiguity of the whole thing leads to much speculation among drivers and contention during block training, basically, the T/op decides, thus a game of roulette ensues.....are they open.....or.....aren't they 🤔 |
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Post by rincew1nd on Sept 26, 2018 9:51:29 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2018 1:08:39 GMT
Funny thing, when I arrived in Fremantle Australia as a child, I was suppressed that the train doors were left open all the time, early form of air conditioning and they were manually operated by the passengers. As kids we always stood in the door way hanging tightly on to the hand rail being careful not to fall out. However this kind of common sense has been drummed out of us over the following generations. www.westonlangford.com/media/photos/115081.jpg |
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Post by superteacher on Sept 27, 2018 5:04:33 GMT
Funny thing, when I arrived in Fremantle Australia as a child, I was suppressed that the train doors were left open all the time, early form of air conditioning and they were manually operated by the passengers. As kids we always stood in the door way hanging tightly on to the hand rail being careful not to fall out. However this kind of common sense has been drummed out of us over the following generations. www.westonlangford.com/media/photos/115081.jpg There’s a slight distinction though between using common sense and exercising plain stupidity! |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Sept 27, 2018 7:37:30 GMT
Funny thing, when I arrived in Fremantle Australia as a child, I was suppressed that the train doors were left open all the time, early form of air conditioning and they were manually operated by the passengers. As kids we always stood in the door way hanging tightly on to the hand rail being careful not to fall out. However this kind of common sense has been drummed out of us over the following generations. www.westonlangford.com/media/photos/115081.jpg There’s a slight distinction though between using common sense and exercising plain stupidity! To what exactly does 'plain stupidity' refer? |
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Post by drainrat on Sept 27, 2018 10:20:16 GMT
.....that 'common sense' isn't 'common' at all, just relative hmmm 🤔
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Post by trt on Sept 27, 2018 11:03:09 GMT
There’s a slight distinction though between using common sense and exercising plain stupidity! To what exactly does 'plain stupidity' refer? It's different to self-raising stupidity. |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Sept 27, 2018 11:09:51 GMT
Back on topic, please.
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Post by drainrat on Sept 27, 2018 15:54:24 GMT
Is there really anything left to discuss on this? I agree a lot will be speculation, but when someone does know what has gone on, it can't be spoken about. |
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Post by superteacher on Sept 27, 2018 18:21:29 GMT
There’s a slight distinction though between using common sense and exercising plain stupidity! To what exactly does 'plain stupidity' refer? Standing in the doorway of an open train and leaning out. OK, the previous poster didn’t say they dd that, but you can bet others did. Is there really anything left to discuss on this? I agree a lot will be speculation, but when someone does know what has gone on, it can't be spoken about.
In this case, the RAIB report already refers to driver error, so there isn't much more to speculate on that. What we don't want is speculation on how or why the driver acted in the way that they did.
When the facts are clear, we don't have a problem with members talking about those. It's always a fine line, but in this thread things seem OK for now.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Jul 10, 2019 9:16:38 GMT
The RAIB have released their report:
Admin comment, I've unlocked this thread for now, let's stick to the facts please folks!
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Post by silenthunter on Jul 10, 2019 9:22:54 GMT
Never knew that about shift workers and their food habits - something to bear in mind if I ever do a job like that.
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Post by trt on Jul 10, 2019 12:39:31 GMT
Just read the report. There are a few things I was surprised about; there seems to be no testing schedule that validates the requirements documents for safety systems, or at least that the schedule isn't reapplied after major changes to the systems (such as the ATO fitment) and that train fault logs aren't downloaded routinely (it would have shown up the fan & information screen failures).
Still, makes for an interesting read anyway.
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Post by tjw on Jul 10, 2019 15:10:30 GMT
train fault logs aren't downloaded routinely (it would have shown up the fan & information screen failures). Still, makes for an interesting read anyway. I found it very interesting that minor faults with fans and info screens could overload the management system... I would prefer a system that would log and act on major faults such doors, brakes etc. immediately! Fans and info screens can be fixed at the end of the day / week! (para 50 and 52) It is also very interesting that 'some' trains in ATO can start with doors open! (para 69 and 86) I am not surprised by the effect of drivers going in to auto mode (paras 82-86) I find that I too can do tasks semi-consciously, in safety critical work I try to follow a set programme or check list that should avoid a tendency to short cuts. As with trains moving with doors open, I am sure that I have travelled on stock with doors open, Paris? London being international it may not be a surprise for many travelling on L.U. I suspect that if I had been on the train I would have waited until the train arrived at the next station before pulling the Comm. cord. If the train was busy with standing room I would have pulled it immediately. N.B. I am not L.U. staff. |
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