Interesting movements at Earl's Court

So how long's a little while, and what is actually the point? To allow more passengers to board? To avoid stopping (which we've already proven is impossible in this situation)? To sit there and have a sip of tea? To annoy the signalman?



So once again wasting line capacity.



Indeed - but as a driver you don't know if there's going to be a Circle arriving from High Street Kensington. You can only make a guess whether that's going to happen. Any in any case it's irrelevant to the point - the longer it takes for your train to clear platform 1 and fully berth at EC.7, the longer it takes for the following train to be signalled into Earl's Court platform 1, possibly with trains backed up behind that. As we've already confirmed, whatever happens you're going to have to pretty much stop at EC.7 in order to trigger the time delay to release the locking on the points, so by messing about spending some extra time in the platform or departing slowly you're simply postponing the start of that process to release the locking. One may think this little bit of extra time doesn't matter much, but if every train does the same all of a sudden several minutes are wasted every hour - which is enough to fit a train or two through the area. The current timetable *may*, at times, mask this by having enough slack, however when the job is up the wall every second really does count, and this is one reason why certain locations suffer chronic blocking back. You've already stated that Earl's Court is a crew relief location, so those extra seconds added to the platform re-occupation time are particularly important if a crew change is to occur. Likewise the following train from platform 2 may well be an Edgware Road train, which your extra time approaching EC.7 is now actively delaying. Local knowledge simply cannot tell you these things - the only person who is truly in a position to make these judgements is the signalman.

Someone appears to have made the decision to choose that location for monitoring signal response times - again this hasn't just been picked randomly, it will have been selected because someone has identified it as a critical location.

Some people may get a bit of a rude awakening when ATC does come - and signallers are calling people up querying why they were half a minute late departing somewhere!



Again, *if*. As a driver you've know way of knowing if that's going to happen or not. And even if in some places you can see what's happening in front of you, you can rarely know what's going on behind you.



Without knowing the signalling design in detail, you simply cannot be relied upon to make these judgements. Even if, by luck or design, the right judgement is made for your own passengers, you could well be delaying the passengers on the train behind between stations.



The nature of a rapid-transit railway is that trains will be held in places which aren't always a station. That's a fact of life and is necessary to maintain capacity. So, no, in my view it's not always desitable to hold a train in platforms. Sure there are situations where it's desirable - for example if there's clearly an incident going on ahead - but most of the time the result is likely to simply be that someone else's train ends up being held somewhere instead. The whole point of the signalling is to keep trains moving - not to be picky about where trains are and aren't held, within reason.



Define common sense. Imposing extra time on one's own train plus those of others certainly isn't sensible.




Right - so a very good reason to depart as promptly and quickly as possible to allow the following train to get in as quickly as possible. As above, it's no coincidence that this location seems to have been chosen for monitoring.




The word apparent perhaps being key there!



Yes - so taking time to approach EC.7 is simply delaying the start of that process. You're never going to avoid stopping at EC.7 (unless the points are already reverse), so any faffing about is potentially adding delay. Yes you *may* still be held at EC.7, but without having an illuminated diagram in front of you there's no way of knowing for sure. And one way or the other, delay is still being added to the train behind.


S stock is about 120 metres long so lets meet in the middle and say two train lengths.

So two train lengths to EC7 eh? Well I said "just over a train length away" with one and a half train lengths being the figure in my mind. Now if you factor in the double bend departing platform 1, and that EC7 comes into view about 3 cars or so after departing platform 1.....




Surely a train is under control at any time when the driver is using service braking and within line speed? There's platforms on the Northern which can be entered at 40 mph even in the wet, whilst there's other locations (West Finchley northbound) where even 30 mph is likely to lead to the wheels locking up and an overrun.



Ah, another buzz phrase! Responding to a proceed aspect and departing at line speed is not chasing red signals.



Yes, and responding to a yellow and dropping speed can also lead to SPADs occurring. There are plenty of examples of incidents where people have sighted a repeater, dropped speed, and then driven straight into a perfectly visible red signal - as happens on a pretty regular basis. Psychologically it may well be a case that the brain normalises the sighting of the yellow, drops guard for a few moments, and then the driver finds themselves too close to the red aspect. The human factors behind SPADs are very much more complex than slow=good and fast=bad.



It would be interesting to know the answer to that. It's also interesting to note that platform 2 doesn't have a comparable repeater. How visible is EC.7 from platform 2, including if a train is standing on the adjacent track?



One possible factor may well be that a generation of drivers on the Jubilee and Northern won't have been brought up with the skill to judge when a platform over-run is likely due to poor adhesion, as the system currently enforces a highly slow approach to open-air platforms.

From a braking point of view I wouldn't say ATC has made any difference to how I will stop a train. The change in speed profile on the Northern has led to different braking points for many locations, however in places where the speed profile is the same generally the braking points are the same. It was ever thus that Tooting Broadway n/b tailwall would be passed at 35 mph with the brakes just having gone on, and still is the case. Ironically this also happens to be what the ATO does (for once!).




Deliberately going as fast as possible up to a red and then slamming on full service braking at the last possible moment may well be bad practice, however so is deliberately hanging back in my view. A red signal certainly doesn't need 265 metres of preparation time from 20 mph!

Could the thinking also be that the most efficient way of approaching a red signal depends on whether you expect it to clear or not? Certainly observation of f]drivers on the Big Railway at "approach controlled" junctions, and drivers on the roads suggests that if you know you're going to have to stop, you plan your braking accordingly, coming smoothly to stop. But if you think it's going to clear, you try to keep as much momentum on as possible, (whilst still being able to stop if it doesn't clear) so that you can make a smart getaway and get up to line speed as quickly as possible when you get the clear signal.

If it felt like a two way conversation I'd happily carry it on, but sadly anything I say seems to be rubbished.

It seems 14 years as a driver, the last 6 of which has been as an Instructor Operator - all on the District line - plus 4 years prior to that as station staff [ironically] at Earls Court don't qualify me to have enough knowledge of how the Earls Court area works from either a signalling perspective nor how drivers work their trains through it.

Not something you want everyday that's for sure!

Just to pull out some jargon for this for the benefit of non-signaller members:

LSP = Late Surrender Protection; arrangements made by the Signaller, Line Controller and Track Access Controller to maintain a safe worksite separated from the operational railway where engineering works have overrun
TD(s) = Train Description(s); one, two or three character alphanumeric codes used for a combination of junction working and destination indicator boards. Completely different from the Network Rail meaning of the term, incidentally (also, TDs are the bane of my life, I have a lot of sympathy for places like EC when they go wrong)
"pushed" = In this context, selecting a route, baring in mind that as a regulating room all signalling control at Earl's Court is done via the use of push buttons working local IMRs (Interlocking Machine Rooms)
TH = Tower Hill
SK = South Kensington
EMB = Embankment
"auto" = In this instance auto-through working, I assume, similar to the role of a king lever in a cabin but not quite. Essentially trains will be signalled automatically by the programme machines regardless of the order they were presented and to keep things running without requiring manual intervention from the signaller.

Members are reminded to always explain technical terms and jargon in the first instance. Whilst many of our members enjoy a level of understanding of these terms, some don't, so we ask that posts are kept accessible to allow everyone a fair shot of understanding what is being talked about.

I obviously can't speak for EC in particular, but if I clear for a train I generally want it to move - if it's more beneficial to hold it in a platform, I will. The driver of that train doesn't necessarily know what's going on in front or behind them.

Case in point is Praed Street Junction. If a westbound train is going to get held at OP12 for a passing Outer Rail I'll generally leave it in the platform, unless I needed that platform to bring in something else (such as from Baker Street - where it's very possible that waiting for a train to cross via OP37 will end up detaining a Met at MB36 - every few seconds genuinely do count) - if I want the train to go, it will be cleared for. 30 seconds is reasonable to complete platform duties, but much longer than that and you're now potentially delaying a train waiting to come from Paddington (Circle) via OP37 and/or leave from the centre platforms via starter OP5 or OP6.... in turn then delaying a train from Paddington (Suburban) or arriving into the middle roads. Delays cascade very quickly; I imagine Earl's Court can be even worse.

LU do use treadles but the east side of Earls Court and Edgware Road do not have them they use standard track circuits and position detectors of a different type to a treadle