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Post by marjoram on May 1, 2018 19:06:39 GMT
Whilst out viewing the northern end of the line today, a couple of questions have arisen which I know the knowledgeable gents on this forum will soon be able to satisfy. Firstly whilst at Mill Hill East I was unable to decide, one way or the other, whether the trackbed has ever gone beyond the current terminus? and secondly at East Finchley the two centre tracks appear well used but nothing appeared on them in the thirty or so minutes I was there which prompts the question as to what are they used for, and when?
Thanks chaps, Regards Richard M.
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Post by superteacher on May 1, 2018 19:27:32 GMT
Whilst out viewing the northern end of the line today, a couple of questions have arisen which I know the knowledgeable gents on this forum will soon be able to satisfy. Firstly whilst at Mill Hill East I was unable to decide, one way or the other, whether the trackbed has ever gone beyond the current terminus? and secondly at East Finchley the two centre tracks appear well used but nothing appeared on them in the thirty or so minutes I was there which prompts the question as to what are they used for, and when? Thanks chaps, Regards Richard M. The track bed did indeed continue past Mill Hill East to Edgware, although was never operated by underground trains. The centre tracks at East Finchley were part of the LNER main line to Finsbury Park via Highgate High Level. Nowadays, they just provide access to Highgate depot. |
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Post by crusty54 on May 1, 2018 19:42:22 GMT
At Edgware part of the trackbed has been used for a rail connected materials depot.
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Post by John Tuthill on May 1, 2018 20:23:43 GMT
Whilst out viewing the northern end of the line today, a couple of questions have arisen which I know the knowledgeable gents on this forum will soon be able to satisfy. Firstly whilst at Mill Hill East I was unable to decide, one way or the other, whether the trackbed has ever gone beyond the current terminus? and secondly at East Finchley the two centre tracks appear well used but nothing appeared on them in the thirty or so minutes I was there which prompts the question as to what are they used for, and when? Thanks chaps, Regards Richard M. Look out for 'Northern Wastes' by Jim Blake, out of print but might be on Amazon, and the 'Disused Stations' web page, under 'E' look out for 'Edgware(GNR)'this will lead you to a good potted history of the branch. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 1, 2018 22:54:02 GMT
I've just been re-reading "Nortrhern Wastes" - interesting pictures of the unfinished Northern Line platforms at Finsbury Park, above where the bus staion now is.
See also Jay Foreman's informative (and highly entertaining) video
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Post by theblackferret on May 2, 2018 9:53:35 GMT
Whilst out viewing the northern end of the line today, a couple of questions have arisen which I know the knowledgeable gents on this forum will soon be able to satisfy. Firstly whilst at Mill Hill East I was unable to decide, one way or the other, whether the trackbed has ever gone beyond the current terminus? and secondly at East Finchley the two centre tracks appear well used but nothing appeared on them in the thirty or so minutes I was there which prompts the question as to what are they used for, and when? Thanks chaps, Regards Richard M. Look out for 'Northern Wastes' by Jim Blake, out of print but might be on Amazon, and the 'Disused Stations' web page, under 'E' look out for 'Edgware(GNR)'this will lead you to a good potted history of the branch. Northern Wastes is currently on Amazon (used) for 13.69 + p & p(£2.95), or on eBay, also pre-owned, for £7.99 and £1.99 postage. |
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Post by spsmiler on May 2, 2018 10:16:06 GMT
This map might be of interest... (the grey background is to match the colour theme of the web page its on - sorry its so large but image insertion tools do not include the option to reduce image sizes.)  It comes from this page at my website: citytransport.info/Northern.htmI find it extremely frustrating that the works were abandoned... I sometimes travel to the stations on what we nowadays call the High Barnet branch and it would be so much easier were it possible to change trains (North London Line to / from Northern Line) at Highbury & Islington rather than Camden Road / Town. Journey times would be shorter too, plus at Finsbury Park congestion from bus / train interchanging passengers reduced. Oh and also the Piccadilly Line would not be suffering such severe overcrowding on the Cockfosters branch, although the closure of the Stratford - Palace Gates service is also partly culpable for this. Had the works been completed then passengers travelling between Edgware and stations Kennington - Morden would likely have had a choice of four different routes by through train plus a fifth with a change of train at Old Street / Moorgate. How is that for variety... a different route for every working day! Also, its likely that the Alexander Palace branch would have been so busy that it would have justified trains every 4 - 6 minutes, even off-peak. I accept that a parkland walkway is nice to have but its left large areas of inner north London as a rail transport desert. btw, in the steam train era when these routes were open trains travelled to three London termini. Kings Cross, Broad Street (via Canonbury and the North London Line) and Moorgate (via the widened lines... Farringdon etc). Simon |
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 2, 2018 10:35:00 GMT
East Finchley to Mill Hill East was originally part of the Great Northern Railway's branch from Finsbury Park to Edgware, opened in 1867 and therefore almost as old as the Metropolitan Railway. (The oldest part of the Underground of all is the ex-GER section from Leyton to Loughton, opened in 1856). It was single track beyond Finchley Central, where the branch to High Barnet turned off. What you saw at Mil Hill East was the continuation to Edgware, and what you saw at East Finchley was the continuation to Highgate (High Level) and Finsbury Park.
The 1930s "New Works" plan would have been beyond the wildest dreams of most of our Croyonisti! It included:
1. conversion of the Northern City line from its unique electrification system to standard LT 4th rail
2. diversion of the "Northern City" line at Drayton Park to new high level platforms at Finsbury Park, to allow trains from Moorgate to reach the main line
3. extending the Northern Line's Highgate branch from its terminus (now called Archway) to join this line at East Finchley
4. electrification of the line from East Finchley to High Barnet
5. electrification of the line from Finsbury Park to East Finchley and Alexandra Palace (the high level station, not the current one of that name on the main line),
6. double tracking and electrification of the single track section from Finchley Central to Edgware
7. extending it from Edgware over a new formation to Bushey Heath,
By 1940, when further work was suspended "for the duration", the only steps completed were step 1 (allowing the original Northern City line stock to be withdrawn) and steps 3 and 4, allowing Northern Line trains to be extended beyond Highgate to High Barnet) but in order to serve a barracks at Mill Hill East the single line was electrified thus far (and no further) in 1941.
The Edgware line never re-opened to passengers, and the Finsbury Park - Highgate - Ally Pally service ended, still steam hauled, in 1953.
The only other part of the project to eventually be completed was step 2, in 1975, when British Rail electric trains started to run from Moorgate (to Welwyn and Hertford, rather than High Barnet!) via Drayton Park. The line was converted to BR standard 3rd rail at the same time.
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Post by spsmiler on May 2, 2018 10:54:17 GMT
The only other part of the project to eventually be completed was step 6, in 1975, when British Rail electric trains started to run from Moorgate (to Welwyn and Hertford, rather than High Barnet!) via Drayton Park. It still uses Class 313 trains, but later this year (2018) these will start to be replaced by Class 717 trains. Simon |
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Post by superteacher on May 2, 2018 10:56:51 GMT
It was 1976 when BR trains first ran on the Northern City Line into Moorgate.
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 2, 2018 11:19:46 GMT
It was 1976 when BR trains first ran on the Northern City Line into Moorgate. My mistake - 1975 was when the last Tube trains ran before conversion of the line. |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on May 2, 2018 11:43:48 GMT
...sorry its so large but image insertion tools do not include the option to reduce image sizes.) The rule requiring members to only post images under a certain size was removed in 2013 when the forum was upgraded. Images are now scaled down automatically so they they no longer distort browser windows, this also works on the 'mobile' theme. |
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on May 2, 2018 13:19:31 GMT
I've often wondered, had this program ever been completed, what kind of chaos would have ensued on The Northern Line if just a small part of it had a problem? Perhaps they would have had to split it all up a lot sooner to achieve the kind of service patterns now being demanded.
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 2, 2018 13:36:06 GMT
I would guess that common sense would have prevailed and the Moorgate via Finsbury Park services would have been shown as a separate line on the map - with "shared line" colouring (cf Rayners to Uxbridge) north/west of East Finchley if either or both branches were served by trains on both routes. It would even have been possible for Finsbury Park line trains to be operated by surface stock.
(Note that the layout at Highgate meant that trains from the Camden Town direction could not serve Alexandra Palace, they did not surface until after that line had branched off the old LNER line)
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Post by superteacher on May 2, 2018 13:45:13 GMT
I’ve seen various suggestions as to what the service pattern would have been. Trains from the Northern City section could have worked to High Barnet or Edgware / Bushey Heath via Mill Hill, as well as being the sole server of the Alexandra Palace branch.
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Post by holborncentral on May 2, 2018 14:28:27 GMT
I've just been re-reading "Nortrhern Wastes" - interesting pictures of the unfinished Northern Line platforms at Finsbury Park, above where the bus staion now is. See also Jay Foreman's informative (and highly entertaining) video I love that video. It's really funny  I'm actually quite interested in the Northern Heights plan and unfinished tube lines and what could have been. Wonder if there's ever a chance those lines might be built again? |
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Post by spsmiler on May 2, 2018 15:01:33 GMT
re: it reopening, there is an organisation which advocates reopening the line to Ally Pally but the people behind the Parkland Walkway will fight tooth and nail to prevent this from happening. I personally would like to see it reopened as it would offer much better transport links than is possible with diesel buses stuck in traffic on roads with 20 mph limits that are not wide enough for any sort of bus priority system. I've walked the route and whilst its true that in places there is an ambiance of being in a park, there are areas which are less nice and I must wonder if they experience any crime. Also, the route is not very accessible. The station at Alexandra Palace was right next to the palace whilst the present-day station of that name is at the bottom of a steep hill and anyone who is less than fit and healthy will want to travel by bus rather than walk to the palace. Oh and its on the mainline so the PAYG fares are higher than most TfL railway services. The day I walked the railway I also tried to find and photograph the disused station but was made very unwelcome by local security bods. Some links: Friends Of The Parkland Walk. www.parkland-walk.org.uk/Muswell Hill Metro. muswellhillmetrogroup.atspace.com/re: the service, I think the plan was for trains via Golders Green to still terminate at Edgware whilst it would be trains from Moorgate via Mill Hill and Essex Road that would extend to Bushey Heath. Its hard to know how the service would have matured over time, I often wondered whether advantage would have been taken of the larger tunnel size Moorgate - Finsbury Park to run full size (S Stock sized) trains. If they had done this then these would not have been able to go to Bushey Hill as this extension included some new tunnels* which were only suitable for small size tube trains. But these higher capacity trains could have served High Barnet and Alexandra Palace. *Digging the tunnels did commence but I am unsure whether they were completed. In the rush hours some services on the Moorgate - Finsbury Park route were planned to continue using the deep level tube platforms but I suppose these would have ended as part of the Victoria Line project and the cross platform interchange we have today. I also assume that the cross-platform interchange that exists today would still have occurred at Highbury & Islington. Simon ps: thanks for the Admin comment. Much appreciated. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 2, 2018 15:45:12 GMT
Most of the reasons for the poor patronage of the Alexandra Palace branch in the 1950s still hold true today. The station was, indeed, well placed for the Palace itself but that has not been a major traffic generator for many years (its fortunes closely mirrored that of the Crystal Place branch in fact, although at least AP didn't actually burn down!) Most of the station's catchment area is a large park, which generates little commuter traffic. The main catchment is at the bottom of the hill, where the GN line station is. And that is on a much more direct line to central London than the circuitous route via Highgate.
The line has been built on in places (two primary schools and a retirement home being the main obstructions). And it is doubtful there would still be enough capacity into Moorgate now the Welwyn/Hertford services use the line.
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Post by littlejohn on May 2, 2018 16:23:43 GMT
It is worth noting that the original LNER Edgware station was (naturally) separate to the LT one. Forty or more years ago there was a pub in Edgware called the Railway Arms (or something like that, it was a long time ago now) which was some distance from the Underground station and was presumably near the site of the LNER one. A chord would have been constructed to join the two lines where they crossed. There used to be the remains of the LNER overbridge crossing the Underground line just outside Edgware station - is it still there? The two stations are clear on the map at about 4:48 on the video. For a really comprehensive history of the Elstree Extension, see 'By Tube Beyond Edgware' by Tony Beard (Capital Transport, 2002).
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Post by marjoram on May 2, 2018 16:33:03 GMT
Thanks for all the feed back, gents. Very concise and very interesting.
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Post by theblackferret on May 2, 2018 17:55:29 GMT
Most of the reasons for the poor patronage of the Alexandra Palace branch in the 1950s still hold true today. The station was, indeed, well placed for the Palace itself but that has not been a major traffic generator for many years (its fortunes closely mirrored that of the Crystal Place branch in fact, although at least AP didn't actually burn down!) Most of the station's catchment area is a large park, which generates little commuter traffic. The main catchment is at the bottom of the hill, where the GN line station is. And that is on a much more direct line to central London than the circuitous route via Highgate. The line has been built on in places (two primary schools and a retirement home being the main obstructions). And it is doubtful there would still be enough capacity into Moorgate now the Welwyn/Hertford services use the line. Actually Ally predated its' elder sister in burning down by nearly sixty years. The original burnt down within two years of opening in 1873 & the place was closed four or five times more because of financial losses before the Great War, hence why the branch kept terminating at Muswell Hill! The one advantage Ally had was it opened on Sundays (when not actually shut down completely), which Crystal Palace resolutely failed to do for years when in its' zenith as a fashionable venue. EDIT For the benefit of pedants, Crystal Palace, re-erected from Hyde Park in 1854, had its' North Transept burnt down (and never replaced) in early 1867. |
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I'm actually quite interested in the Northern Heights plan and unfinished tube lines and what could have been. Wonder if there's ever a chance those lines might be built again?
