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Post by trt on Apr 15, 2018 8:43:12 GMT
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Post by Chris M on Aug 29, 2018 11:23:00 GMT
The Safety Digest into this incident has now been published. It involved a southbound West Midlands Trains Class 350 train. A passenger attempted to board the train while the doors were closing, placing their forearm between them assuming that they would reopen if they encountered an obstruction as would a lift door. The design of the sensitive edge system was such that the obstruction was not detected. The conductor assumed that the bodyside lights extinguishing meant that there was nothing/nobody trapped in the doors. They say they shouted to the passenger to stand clear, but the passenger did not hear anything. www.gov.uk/government/publications/safety-digest-072018-bushey/passenger-trapped-in-train-doors-and-dragged-at-bushey-station-26-march-2018
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Post by stapler on Aug 29, 2018 12:21:04 GMT
I'm presuming it was dark at the time, but the report doesn't seem to mention lighting conditions....
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Aug 29, 2018 12:36:07 GMT
I'm presuming it was dark at the time, but the report doesn't seem to mention lighting conditions.... ~9.30pm in March, probably.
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Post by philthetube on Aug 29, 2018 15:23:26 GMT
The Safety Digest into this incident has now been published. It involved a southbound West Midlands Trains Class 350 train. A passenger attempted to board the train while the doors were closing, placing their forearm between them assuming that they would reopen if they encountered an obstruction as would a lift door. The design of the sensitive edge system was such that the obstruction was not detected. The conductor assumed that the bodyside lights extinguishing meant that there was nothing/nobody trapped in the doors. They say they shouted to the passenger to stand clear, but the passenger did not hear anything. www.gov.uk/government/publications/safety-digest-072018-bushey/passenger-trapped-in-train-doors-and-dragged-at-bushey-station-26-march-2018I don't think it is a sensitive edge system, just normal interlocks.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Aug 29, 2018 15:35:20 GMT
The digest published by RAIB refer to it as a sensitive edge system.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2018 16:20:24 GMT
Going by the report, that is sensitive edge rather than interlocks. I hate to start this debate again, but maybe removing conductors is a bad thing. Quite a serious door fault, I wonder what the suggested action would be to fix this.
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Post by tjw on Aug 29, 2018 18:47:04 GMT
Going by the report, that is sensitive edge rather than interlocks. I hate to start this debate again, but maybe removing conductors is a bad thing. Quite a serious door fault, I wonder what the suggested action would be to fix this. Errr this was a failure of the Conductor... Ding, ding and away. Perhaps a driver having access to CCTV would have seen the passenger? As for suggested action, perhaps have automatic gates onto the platform, to prevent passengers accessing the platform during train dispatch. It was common for porters / ticket collectors at stations to close the barrier just before the train was due to depart.
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Post by greggygreggygreg on Aug 29, 2018 19:58:53 GMT
Doesn't do much for the counter-argument to DOO, does it? Especially when the conductor admitted seeing the passenger. And he was a conductor instructor!
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Post by Chris M on Aug 29, 2018 20:50:43 GMT
Going by the report, that is sensitive edge rather than interlocks. I hate to start this debate again, but maybe removing conductors is a bad thing. Quite a serious door fault, I wonder what the suggested action would be to fix this. Errr this was a failure of the Conductor... Ding, ding and away. Perhaps a driver having access to CCTV would have seen the passenger? As for suggested action, perhaps have automatic gates onto the platform, to prevent passengers accessing the platform during train dispatch. It was common for porters / ticket collectors at stations to close the barrier just before the train was due to depart. Yes the conductor caused the trap-and-drag but they were also the one who stopped it. Other trap and drag incidents on DOO routes show that even with CCTV it can be very difficult to determine whether someone is merely close to the train or interacting with it. The only way you can guarantee no trap and drag incidents is to ensure that there is no person between the train and the yellow line at any time the train is moving. I can't think of any way of achieving this without one or more members of staff who can (individually or collectively) monitor the entire platform-train interface from the moment the door closing alarm starts until the moment the entire train has left the platform. Certainly for trains longer than about two carriages the driver is going to need to be looking at the line ahead before the rear of the train is clear of the platform.
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Post by class411 on Aug 30, 2018 7:46:56 GMT
Errr this was a failure of the Conductor... Ding, ding and away. Perhaps a driver having access to CCTV would have seen the passenger? As for suggested action, perhaps have automatic gates onto the platform, to prevent passengers accessing the platform during train dispatch. It was common for porters / ticket collectors at stations to close the barrier just before the train was due to depart. Yes the conductor caused the trap-and-drag but they were also the one who stopped it. Other trap and drag incidents on DOO routes show that even with CCTV it can be very difficult to determine whether someone is merely close to the train or interacting with it. The only way you can guarantee no trap and drag incidents is to ensure that there is no person between the train and the yellow line at any time the train is moving. I can't think of any way of achieving this without one or more members of staff who can (individually or collectively) monitor the entire platform-train interface from the moment the door closing alarm starts until the moment the entire train has left the platform. Certainly for trains longer than about two carriages the driver is going to need to be looking at the line ahead before the rear of the train is clear of the platform. And even if you could, how would you ever get all of the passengers on a really busy platform out of the zone in a reasonable timeframe on a busy platform where people might be waiting for the next train or adjusting their luggage, all the while happily playing music so they could not hear the guard?
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Post by brigham on Aug 30, 2018 7:54:40 GMT
It's thankful such incidents are rare. In the bigger picture, if the number of pedestrians coming into contact with moving road vehicles could be reduced to this level, it would be a major step forward for road safety.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Aug 30, 2018 9:02:11 GMT
I read somewhere that half of PTI incidents happen with DOO and half with guard operated doors but the statistic to place alongside that is that only a third of trains are DOO. Having guards doesn't eliminate trap-and-drag but it seems to reduce the frequency.
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Post by stapler on Aug 30, 2018 9:15:02 GMT
The issue is surely with the design of the sensitive edge, and the adjustment of it, as pointed out by the report. Distraction or inattention by the guard/conductor at what was surely a quiet time of day would have been another factor. On statistics, the passenger boardings/alightings on DOO routes surely would have to be compared with these on the others to get a fair picture..
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Post by greggygreggygreg on Aug 30, 2018 9:22:53 GMT
I read somewhere that half of PTI incidents happen with DOO and half with guard operated doors but the statistic to place alongside that is that only a third of trains are DOO. Having guards doesn't eliminate trap-and-drag but it seems to reduce the frequency. You could muck about with statistics to fiddle it either way. You could say DOO services carry far more passengers than crewed ones, as DOO tend to work suburban services, so therefore per passenger DOO is safer.
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Post by tjw on Aug 30, 2018 14:42:06 GMT
So half of the incidents, occur on just a third of the trains, but those trains are carrying over half or is it 2/3rds of the passengers... I have worked with some awful Guards, that have made appalling errors, but I had always found most Guards were good... Those stats don't paint a good picture for Conductors. To be fair watching the conductors working on Southern, I would not want their job having to work on crowded trains, working from a set of doors being used by passengers. Yes the conductor caused the trap-and-drag but they were also the one who stopped it. Other trap and drag incidents on DOO routes show that even with CCTV it can be very difficult to determine whether someone is merely close to the train or interacting with it. The only way you can guarantee no trap and drag incidents is to ensure that there is no person between the train and the yellow line at any time the train is moving. I can't think of any way of achieving this without one or more members of staff who can (individually or collectively) monitor the entire platform-train interface from the moment the door closing alarm starts until the moment the entire train has left the platform. Certainly for trains longer than about two carriages the driver is going to need to be looking at the line ahead before the rear of the train is clear of the platform. I have worked as a Station foreman seeing out trains on curved platforms and even double sided platforms (Slam door stock). Hmm leading porter 1 signals to leading porter 2 who signals to the guard... No thanks, can we have a set of cameras on each door, and perhaps even a computer flagging up objects near the doors. Or even better a system that detects if objects are stuck in the door.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2018 20:13:57 GMT
Going by the report, that is sensitive edge rather than interlocks. I hate to start this debate again, but maybe removing conductors is a bad thing. Quite a serious door fault, I wonder what the suggested action would be to fix this. Errr this was a failure of the Conductor... Ding, ding and away. Perhaps a driver having access to CCTV would have seen the passenger? As for suggested action, perhaps have automatic gates onto the platform, to prevent passengers accessing the platform during train dispatch. It was common for porters / ticket collectors at stations to close the barrier just before the train was due to depart. The point I am trying to make is, human error is a thing. Normally, when there is an incident, you put something in place to ensure it does not happen again. I am surprised nothing has happened considering its not the first time. A redesign of the sensitive edge to make sure it does the job (and can't be 'fooled' like the report shows) would reduce the risk of this happening again surely?
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Post by Chris M on Aug 30, 2018 22:42:08 GMT
A redesign would indeed do the job, and as the report mentions has been done for new installations. What hasn't been done is a retrofit, presumably because such would be very expensive and/or difficult thus not being seen as proportionate.
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Post by trt on Aug 31, 2018 9:39:22 GMT
Bushey doesn’t even gave a gate line let alone platform barriers. It does have a platform gate for platform 3 which is alighting only from front 4 cars on the fast line.
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Post by John Tuthill on Aug 31, 2018 9:56:40 GMT
A redesign would indeed do the job, and as the report mentions has been done for new installations. What hasn't been done is a retrofit, presumably because such would be very expensive and/or difficult thus not being seen as proportionate. Having spent the last 30 odd years involved in fire and safety systems in general, the one thing you can never 'engineer' for is the human being
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2018 10:16:41 GMT
A redesign would indeed do the job, and as the report mentions has been done for new installations. What hasn't been done is a retrofit, presumably because such would be very expensive and/or difficult thus not being seen as proportionate. Having spent the last 30 odd years involved in fire and safety systems in general, the one thing you can never 'engineer' for is the human being
Yes I agree with you and having seen technology fail a dozen times I agree with you. Computers can blindly follow a command, if you ask it to compensate or improvise, or use initiative it doesn't and cannot ever work. You only have to look at the amount of technology being implemented to ruin society and ask yourself is it getting any better? No it is getting worse.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2018 13:48:55 GMT
Touch wood, but if this were to ever happen again and someone ended up being killed, would the findings be the same...
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Post by Chris M on Aug 31, 2018 16:01:44 GMT
That depends on the individual circumstances. You can be absolutely certain that risk assessments and value for money calculations were carried out after the Newcastle accident, and again after the Bushey one. These will all have been justified to and accepted by the various safety regulators and shareholders - you will never eliminate the risk to zero. What happened here was a failure of the train dispatch process that allowed the train to depart while there was someone trapped in the doors that was allowed by the failure of the sensitive edge system, rather than principally a failure of the sensitive edge system.
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Post by philthetube on Aug 31, 2018 16:32:17 GMT
What is fitted is not sensitive edge equipment, it relies purely on something blocking the doors from closing. there is nothing in it to detect something being dragged by a train, unless a door is pulled open by the dragged item the train will not know if there is a problem.
The underground system is far more effective, if a coat string gets caught and the train drags a child the train braes will automatically apply. It really is good enough to do that.
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Post by Chris M on Aug 31, 2018 17:13:10 GMT
philthetube the system on the Class 350s is described as a sensitive edge system throughout the report. It is certainly a lesser-featured system than the one used on LU but that doesn't mean it isn't a sensitive edge system.
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Post by rincew1nd on Aug 31, 2018 18:38:23 GMT
Touch wood, but if this were to ever happen again and someone ended up being killed, would the findings be the same... No, because the chain of events would have to be slightly different to get a different outcome, thus the recommendations would be different. What is fitted is not sensitive edge equipment... This what the RAIB say:
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Post by philthetube on Aug 31, 2018 18:51:17 GMT
philthetube the system on the Class 350s is described as a sensitive edge system throughout the report. It is certainly a lesser-featured system than the one used on LU but that doesn't mean it isn't a sensitive edge system. <iframe width="30.519999999999982" height="3.3599999999999994" style="position: absolute; width: 30.519999999999982px; height: 3.3599999999999994px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_2589273" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="30.519999999999982" height="3.3599999999999994" style="position: absolute; width: 30.52px; height: 3.36px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1459px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_28946289" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="30.519999999999982" height="3.3599999999999994" style="position: absolute; width: 30.52px; height: 3.36px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 108px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_7724371" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="30.519999999999982" height="3.3599999999999994" style="position: absolute; width: 30.52px; height: 3.36px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1459px; top: 108px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_39013082" scrolling="no"></iframe> I will have a look at it when I travel next week, I will be interested to see if 350's do have sensitive edges, though if they do it is obviously not very sensitive.
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Post by Chris M on Aug 31, 2018 22:08:41 GMT
A 1st-generation Walkman and a latest-generation iPod are very different to each other. They use very different technologies, and the iPod offers many more features and a better user experiecnce, but they are still ultimately both personal music players doing the same job. The Class 350 sensitive edge system and the S stock sensitive edge system use different technologies, and the latter offers more features and a better better user experience, but they are still ultimately both sensitive edge systems doing the same job.
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Post by banana99 on Aug 31, 2018 22:12:12 GMT
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Post by class411 on Sept 1, 2018 7:38:47 GMT
A 1st-generation Walkman and a latest-generation iPod are very different to each other. They use very different technologies, and the iPod offers many more features and a better user experiecnce, but they are still ultimately both personal music players doing the same job. The Class 350 sensitive edge system and the S stock sensitive edge system use different technologies, and the latter offers more features and a better better user experience, but they are still ultimately both sensitive edge systems doing the same job. I thought the primary purpose of the original Walkman was to mangle unwanted tapes.
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