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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2018 20:04:46 GMT
Evening All,
I had a bit of an odd query after seeing a news story. I tried googling but couldn't find the answer, so thought I would ask as it's been bugging me.
I saw the fight video at green park the other where both persons fell down on to the track, and it left me wondering how they didn't get electrocuted.
2 people who have also saw the video have told me 2 different explanations, no idea if either is correct.
the first was that as they had only likely touched one rail, rather than making a connection between the two they were fine.
The second is that because the rail they would likely have hit is the negative, rather than the positive, they were fine as you would only get electrocuted by the positive (or both).
This may be incredibly simple, but I thought you all would be the experts.
Bit of an odd query, but as I say, it's been bugging as I can't figure it out.
Cheers
AJ
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Post by firestorm on Apr 6, 2018 20:53:28 GMT
Evening All, I had a bit of an odd query after seeing a news story. I tried googling but couldn't find the answer, so thought I would ask as it's been bugging me. I saw the fight video at green park the other where both persons fell down on to the track, and it left me wondering how they didn't get electrocuted. 2 people who have also saw the video have told me 2 different explanations, no idea if either is correct. the first was that as they had only likely touched one rail, rather than making a connection between the two they were fine. The second is that because the rail they would likely have hit is the negative, rather than the positive, they were fine as you would only get electrocuted by the positive (or both). This may be incredibly simple, but I thought you all would be the experts. Bit of an odd query, but as I say, it's been bugging as I can't figure it out. Cheers AJ The positive current rail at stations is always placed on the outer side for scenarios like this and like you mentioned, they thankfully didn't touch the positive rail e.g. complete the circuit so were okay.
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Post by Chris M on Apr 6, 2018 21:20:04 GMT
Both positive and negative rail are equally capable of electrocuting you, and you don't need to be touching both - you just need to provide a path from one to ground (which you almost certainly will if you are touching anything else). The running rails are not normally electrified but under certain conditions can be so are best treated with equal caution. I haven't watched (and don't particularly want to watch) the video so I don't know why they were not electrocuted but good fortune will have played a part.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Apr 6, 2018 22:00:57 GMT
I've not seen the video in question, but I have read an associated news story.As firestorm has said when there is a platform on one side only, the positive rail is usually located at the opposite side of the line to the platform. The negative rail is located in the centre of the "four foot", that is between the rails that the wheels run on. Obviously in those rare locations where there is a platform on both sides (eg Stratford - Central Line) it will be immediately under the edge of one of the platforms. With this in mind it is possible that in this incident the people involved did not come into contact with any of the energised rails. Serious comment:Unless you have been trained and/or authorised to go on the track you must not. If you are a "normal" passenger and find yourself unexpectedly on the track (such as during an emergency evacuation of a train) then (whilst they shouldn't be - if you've been authorised by a member of staff) you should treat all rails as live and not stand on or touch them. Admin comment
Criminal charges are being pursued against the individuals in this case. Members must not discuss this particular case, but are free to continue discussing the general topic. All of the forum staff will be monitoring this thread and are empowered by forum rules to take action if they consider it necessary.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2018 22:56:47 GMT
The ruling from the various track courses be it NR or LU “ DONT STEP ON ANY RAIL “
simples it will hurt
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Post by Dmitri on Apr 6, 2018 23:00:22 GMT
treat all rails as live and not stand on It is advised to avoid standing on the top of any rail. Reason: you can easily slip and fall. Step over them.
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Post by superteacher on Apr 6, 2018 23:31:02 GMT
There is a common belief that negative is OK in this case - it’s not. Negetivr only refers to the “direction” of the current. The effect of -200 volts on your body is exactly the same as +200 volts.
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Post by banana99 on Apr 6, 2018 23:58:07 GMT
The Centre Conductor is -210v and the Outside Conductor is +420v. This gives the train 630v of "juice"
If one manages to connect the centre rail to ground with your body then it is less than a buzz of your home electric supply. Not good, but not necessarily lethal. I have not seen the video but if they had sufficient clothing on then that insulation may also have played a part.
As for fighting on the platform. Good luck with that!
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Post by zbang on Apr 7, 2018 3:55:14 GMT
you just need to provide a path from one to ground To be pedantic about it, you have to provide a path back to the source, not to "ground" (or earth). It happens that the traction current source is bonded to "ground" so there is a path from the running rails (and the concrete around them). Also, since I'm being that way, electricity doesn't take the path of least resistance, it takes all paths in proportion to their impedance. I don't plan on watching the video, either.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Apr 7, 2018 5:08:55 GMT
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Post by superteacher on Apr 7, 2018 5:52:33 GMT
The Centre Conductor is -210v and the Outside Conductor is +420v. This gives the train 630v of "juice" If one manages to connect the centre rail to ground with your body then it is less than a buzz of your home electric supply. Not good, but not necessarily lethal. I have not seen the video but if they had sufficient clothing on then that insulation may also have played a part. As for fighting on the platform. Good luck with that! Although the 210 volts will have a lot more current than the 230 / 240 volts home supply, so the overall effect is likely to be worse. Power = volts x current.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2018 7:00:47 GMT
The Centre Conductor is -210v and the Outside Conductor is +420v. This gives the train 630v of "juice" If one manages to connect the centre rail to ground with your body then it is less than a buzz of your home electric supply. Not good, but not necessarily lethal. I have not seen the video but if they had sufficient clothing on then that insulation may also have played a part. As for fighting on the platform. Good luck with that! Although the 210 volts will have a lot more current than the 230 / 240 volts home supply, so the overall effect is likely to be worse. Power = volts x current. Keep in mind we are talking DC with powered rails, not AC. If you come into contact with DC, generally you become stuck as the current flows in one direction causing your muscles to stick in one position. With AC, if you make contact, you are thrown away because of the alternating current (muscles contract and then relax so it is physically the force of your muscles throwing you away)
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Post by philthetube on Apr 7, 2018 7:13:02 GMT
The Centre Conductor is -210v and the Outside Conductor is +420v. This gives the train 630v of "juice" If one manages to connect the centre rail to ground with your body then it is less than a buzz of your home electric supply. Not good, but not necessarily lethal. I have not seen the video but if they had sufficient clothing on then that insulation may also have played a part. As for fighting on the platform. Good luck with that! <iframe width="30.519999999999982" height="4.800000000000011" style="position: absolute; width: 30.52px; height: 4.8px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1455px; top: -200px;" id="MoatPxIOPT1_30036471" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="30.519999999999982" height="4.800000000000011" style="position: absolute; width: 30.52px; height: 4.8px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 10px; top: -15px;" id="MoatPxIOPT1_80998320" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="30.519999999999982" height="4.800000000000011" style="position: absolute; width: 30.52px; height: 4.8px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1455px; top: -15px;" id="MoatPxIOPT1_33993325" scrolling="no"></iframe> More dangerous than being electrocuted at home, firstly because it is not the voltage that kills you but the ampage, (the quantity of electricity*), and secondly because the underground runs on direct current and this holds you to the source while alternating current throws you off it. *electric bills are charged in amps.
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Post by superteacher on Apr 7, 2018 7:21:22 GMT
The Centre Conductor is -210v and the Outside Conductor is +420v. This gives the train 630v of "juice" If one manages to connect the centre rail to ground with your body then it is less than a buzz of your home electric supply. Not good, but not necessarily lethal. I have not seen the video but if they had sufficient clothing on then that insulation may also have played a part. As for fighting on the platform. Good luck with that! <iframe width="30.519999999999982" height="4.800000000000011" style="position: absolute; width: 30.52px; height: 4.8px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1455px; top: -200px;" id="MoatPxIOPT1_30036471" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="30.519999999999982" height="4.800000000000011" style="position: absolute; width: 30.52px; height: 4.8px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 10px; top: -15px;" id="MoatPxIOPT1_80998320" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="30.519999999999982" height="4.800000000000011" style="position: absolute; width: 30.52px; height: 4.8px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1455px; top: -15px;" id="MoatPxIOPT1_33993325" scrolling="no"></iframe> More dangerous than being electrocuted at home, firstly because it is not the voltage that kills you but the ampage, (the quantity of electricity*), and secondly because the underground runs on direct current and this holds you to the source while alternating current throws you off it. *electric bills are charged in amps. I thought electric bills ar charged in KWh (Kilowatt hours), which is a measure of energy.
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Post by philthetube on Apr 7, 2018 8:14:44 GMT
<iframe width="30.519999999999982" height="4.800000000000011" style="position: absolute; width: 30.52px; height: 4.8px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1455px; top: -200px;" id="MoatPxIOPT1_30036471" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="30.519999999999982" height="4.800000000000011" style="position: absolute; width: 30.52px; height: 4.8px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 10px; top: -15px;" id="MoatPxIOPT1_80998320" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="30.519999999999982" height="4.800000000000011" style="position: absolute; width: 30.52px; height: 4.8px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1455px; top: -15px;" id="MoatPxIOPT1_33993325" scrolling="no"></iframe> More dangerous than being electrocuted at home, firstly because it is not the voltage that kills you but the ampage, (the quantity of electricity*), and secondly because the underground runs on direct current and this holds you to the source while alternating current throws you off it. *electric bills are charged in amps. I thought electric bills ar charged in KWh (Kilowatt hours), which is a measure of energy. oops sorry.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2018 12:00:55 GMT
Both positive and negative rail are equally capable of electrocuting you, and you don't need to be touching both - you just need to provide a path from one to ground (which you almost certainly will if you are touching anything else). The running rails are not normally electrified but under certain conditions can be so are best treated with equal caution. I haven't watched (and don't particularly want to watch) the video so I don't know why they were not electrocuted but good fortune will have played a part. The only time I've heard of the running rails being electrified is when a breakdown crane hit overhead power lines during a re-railing operation in Taunton's Fairwater Yard. Didn't do the signalling much good!
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Post by Chris M on Apr 7, 2018 13:17:48 GMT
Obviously on third-rail electrified lines the running rails carry the return current and this is also the case where the three and four rail trains run on the same track (e.g. Wimbledon and Richmond branches, Bakerloo north of Queen's Park) where the fourth rail (negative) is typically bonded to the running rail. It's also possible for running rails to be electrified in various fault scenarios. This is why, as rincew1nd and @aetearlscourt note upthread the advice is to treat all rails as live.
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Post by croxleyn on Apr 7, 2018 18:59:42 GMT
The saying goes "It's the volts that jolts, but the mils (milliamps) that kills".
So if you charge yourself up, possibly to 10,000V, with static by scuffing shoes on a nylon carpet or scrumming trousers on a car seat, you'll feel the bite when touching metal but it won't injure you. But I certainly felt the jolt from a 4000volt oscilloscope power supply I was making, or burn marks on my fingers from a 1200V valve audio amplifier...
I believe the centre, "negative" rail is now nominally 0V: it was originally the 200-odd volts to provide the lighting supply but now all power use is via switch-mode converters from the positive rail. But that's not to say that a train drawing significant current from the conductor rails won't cause a "phantom" voltage on the negative rail - the amplitude depends on how far away the sub-station feeder is.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 7, 2018 23:52:34 GMT
There are places where the negative rail is at 0V, usually where track is shared with NR trains. But surely any requirement for on board supply at less than line voltage is taken from the main supply using a potential divider, not by a separate feed from one or other rail?
As for the effects of electricity on the human body, it depends more on thevroite it finds through the body and therefore which muscles are triggered than on whether it's AC or DC. A shock to the leg muscles can make you hurl yourself across a room. To the fingers can cause you to be unable to release your grip. To the heart can stop it. You can also get severe burns.
The amps are relevant, but the current flowing through you will depend largely on the electrical resistance of your body (and anything between you and the electric supply or the ground, such as your shoes). If the short circuit from rail to ground passes only from toe to heel of one foot, the resistance is low and the current therefore high. You will get a very nasty burn but the current will only pass through your foot. If it passes from one foot to the other the resistance will be greater and the current less- but it will pass through more vital organs (and those powerful leg muscles)
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Post by Dstock7080 on Apr 8, 2018 7:10:19 GMT
The running rails are not normally electrified but under certain conditions can be so are best treated with equal caution. Remember that signalling circuits do run through the running rails, although obviously lower than traction voltage they are still there.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 8, 2018 7:52:20 GMT
15v through the running rails if memory serves
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Post by class411 on Apr 8, 2018 9:07:41 GMT
There are places where the negative rail is at 0V, usually where track is shared with NR trains. But surely any requirement for on board supply at less than line voltage is taken from the main supply using a potential divider, not by a separate feed from one or other rail? As for the effects of electricity on the human body, it depends more on thevroite it finds through the body and therefore which muscles are triggered than on whether it's AC or DC. A shock to the leg muscles can make you hurl yourself across a room. To the fingers can cause you to be unable to release your grip. To the heart can stop it. You can also get severe burns. The amps are relevant, but the current flowing through you will depend largely on the electrical resistance of your body (and anything between you and the electric supply or the ground, such as your shoes). If the short circuit from rail to ground passes only from toe to heel of one foot, the resistance is low and the current therefore high. You will get a very nasty burn but the current will only pass through your foot. If it passes from one foot to the other the resistance will be greater and the current less- but it will pass through more vital organs (and those powerful leg muscles) Actually, the resistance between any two (external, skin covered) points of the human body is pretty much constant. This is because once the current is through the outer layer of the dermis it very quickly find some hot salty liquid (a.k.a. blood) that offers a very low resistance, and proceeds to flow along that. This is why you can kill yourself with a 9v battery if you connected one side to each arm through broken (and still bleeding) skin. Fortunately this is not something that's at all likely to happen by accident. And can we lay this "it's not the volts" myth to rest: The volts will kill you. Yes, you need enough current available (something that's not [or is] a problem with the mains, or a railway's traction supply), but you need the volts to drive it. So you actually need both the volts to drive the current and the available current, in order to do the damage. (The reason that people saying "it's the current that kills you" is annoying is that whilst in one sense it's a tautology, in another it's plain wrong, as having 1 billion amps available will do you no harm whatsoever if the available potential difference is only one volt.)
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Post by bruce on Apr 8, 2018 10:11:42 GMT
1/10 of an ampere (amp) of electricity going through the body for just 2 seconds is enough to cause death. The amount of internal current a person can withstand and still be able to control the muscles of the arm and hand can be less than 10 milliamperes (milliamps or mA).
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Apr 8, 2018 13:08:45 GMT
1/10 of an ampere (amp) of electricity going through the body for just 2 seconds is enough to cause death. The amount of internal current a person can withstand and still be able to control the muscles of the arm and hand can be less than 10 milliamperes (milliamps or mA). George Appel, electrocuted at Sing Sing Prison in 1928, rather wittily announced to the assembled witnesses, governor and executioner as he took his seat: “Well folks, you’ll soon see a baked apple.”
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 8, 2018 13:15:49 GMT
having 1 billion amps available will do you no harm whatsoever if the available potential difference is only one volt.) Not sure what you mean by amps being "available". Either the current is flowing at that rate or it isn't. It is electric charge which can be stored (measured in coulombs) A billion amps across 1 volt gives a power of 1GW, or about 1.3 million horsepower. (The resistance would be tiny, 1 nano-ohm!) You could do that sort of thing, but only for fractions of a second, by short circuiting a million coulomb capacitor in one millisecond, but please let everyone know beforehand so they can get along way away first! Lightning is the other way round, huge voltages but tiny currents. The power, and energy, delivered is the same either way. Power is the product of volts and amps, energy is power multiplied by the time the current flows.
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Post by John Tuthill on Apr 8, 2018 14:15:37 GMT
There are places where the negative rail is at 0V, usually where track is shared with NR trains. But surely any requirement for on board supply at less than line voltage is taken from the main supply using a potential divider, not by a separate feed from one or other rail? As for the effects of electricity on the human body, it depends more on thevroite it finds through the body and therefore which muscles are triggered than on whether it's AC or DC. A shock to the leg muscles can make you hurl yourself across a room. To the fingers can cause you to be unable to release your grip. To the heart can stop it. You can also get severe burns. The amps are relevant, but the current flowing through you will depend largely on the electrical resistance of your body (and anything between you and the electric supply or the ground, such as your shoes). If the short circuit from rail to ground passes only from toe to heel of one foot, the resistance is low and the current therefore high. You will get a very nasty burn but the current will only pass through your foot. If it passes from one foot to the other the resistance will be greater and the current less- but it will pass through more vital organs (and those powerful leg muscles) Actually, the resistance between any two (external, skin covered) points of the human body is pretty much constant. This is because once the current is through the outer layer of the dermis it very quickly find some hot salty liquid (a.k.a. blood) that offers a very low resistance, and proceeds to flow along that. This is why you can kill yourself with a 9v battery if you connected one side to each arm through broken (and still bleeding) skin. Fortunately this is not something that's at all likely to happen by accident. And can we lay this "it's not the volts" myth to rest: The volts will kill you. Yes, you need enough current available (something that's not [or is] a problem with the mains, or a railway's traction supply), but you need the volts to drive it. So you actually need both the volts to drive the current and the available current, in order to do the damage. (The reason that people saying "it's the current that kills you" is annoying is that whilst in one sense it's a tautology, in another it's plain wrong, as having 1 billion amps available will do you no harm whatsoever if the available potential difference is only one volt.) And can you imagine the size of the cable? look at the size of cables on the National grid, then you'll realise why it runs at such high voltages of 400KV
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Post by class411 on Apr 8, 2018 14:16:52 GMT
having 1 billion amps available will do you no harm whatsoever if the available potential difference is only one volt.) Not sure what you mean by amps being "available". Sorry, I thought that was obvious. Any power source will only be able to supply a certain current (limited by, e.g. a fuse, or it's internal resistance). Thus 30 PP9's in series can't be used to satisfactorily power a 2kw electric fire, even for a few seconds. That seems to cover the bases. Indeed, but I meant 'available' in the sense that it could be supplied at all, not how long it could be supplied for. The billion amp figure was supposed to be hyperbolically illustrative, not a figure to be used in circuit calculations. Sorry, that's just plain wrong. Yes, the voltages are extremely high but the currents typically reach tens of thousands of amps.
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Post by class411 on Apr 8, 2018 14:23:55 GMT
Actually, the resistance between any two (external, skin covered) points of the human body is pretty much constant. This is because once the current is through the outer layer of the dermis it very quickly find some hot salty liquid (a.k.a. blood) that offers a very low resistance, and proceeds to flow along that. This is why you can kill yourself with a 9v battery if you connected one side to each arm through broken (and still bleeding) skin. Fortunately this is not something that's at all likely to happen by accident. And can we lay this "it's not the volts" myth to rest: The volts will kill you. Yes, you need enough current available (something that's not [or is] a problem with the mains, or a railway's traction supply), but you need the volts to drive it. So you actually need both the volts to drive the current and the available current, in order to do the damage. (The reason that people saying "it's the current that kills you" is annoying is that whilst in one sense it's a tautology, in another it's plain wrong, as having 1 billion amps available will do you no harm whatsoever if the available potential difference is only one volt.) And can you imagine the size of the cable? look at the size of cables on the National grid, then you'll realise why it runs at such high voltages of 400KV Well, you'd certainly need to reinforce the pylons. If I've got the calculation correct you'd need a conductor of ~150 2 metres cross section
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2018 14:34:00 GMT
15v through the running rails if memory serves 5v to 15v but open circuit voltage is 100v and believe me it does hurt
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Post by silverfoxcc on Apr 8, 2018 17:32:39 GMT
Gents. This thread is the reason i do not understand Electricity. Fascinating reading, but it could be written in Klingon and i still wouldnt understand it (lol)
But please keep it up, on day it might just click. My lad tried to explain it by describing a river flowing... still didnt get any of it!!
All i know is dont tread on anything..one of the reasons i never bunked Southern sheds often
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