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Post by aslefshrugged on May 5, 2018 10:33:28 GMT
Without getting too involved in something I know little of, one point I would emphasise is that none of us know exactly what has gone on. And the union are free to publish their version of events whilst LUL, owing to the confidentiality of their employee, cannot rebut with detailed facts. But we do know what went on, the driver was taken into a meeting without a union rep where they were told that they'd be sacked if they had a fourth SPAD and that their only option was to return to stations which was completely untrue. Acton Town management failed to follow the procedure agreed for the whole of London Underground and that is why the drivers voted to strike. We can only assume that London Underground senior management have supported Acton Town's position because they want to see how many agreements they can break
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Post by aslefshrugged on May 16, 2018 13:02:00 GMT
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Post by Dstock7080 on May 16, 2018 16:45:13 GMT
Unfortunately, the Earl's Court vote was short again: eligible to vote: 128 voting papers returned: 68 yes: 53 no: 13 41.4% as a percentage of those eligible to vote.
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class411
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Post by class411 on May 21, 2018 17:22:21 GMT
Poe's law at work here. There are so many barmy things going on you never know. True story: One of my sister's hotels has a garden that is only accessible via a very steep set of steps. She decided to have a ramp put in so that less able guests could enjoy the garden. The ramp is installed and much appreciated. Then the local council steps in and tells her that as it's a Grade 1 listed building she can't add the ramp. Who knew that listed building legislation trumped disability discrimination legislation? I would have thought it was common knowledge that you can't make alternations to a Listed building without consent from the local council. Indeed it is, but in this case there was no change to the building; just the provision of a free standing facility to provide a means for disabled people to enjoy the same access as the able bodied.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on May 21, 2018 18:27:03 GMT
You are not allowed to change the character of a listed building without appropriate consent. What constitutes a change in the character will depend on on the nature of the proposed works and the nature of the listing (what specifically is listed and why - for example the steps might be an integral part of the listing). Without knowing the details of either it is impossible to form an opinion about whether the ramp would be appropriate or not. Even they don't alter the character of the building, the council are correct to say that works cannot be done without prior approval - planning permission may also be needed. Disability discrimination requires that "reasonable" adjustments be made - adjustments that require changes to the character of a listed building are not normally going to be reasonable.
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class411
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Post by class411 on May 21, 2018 18:50:52 GMT
You are not allowed to change the character of a listed building without appropriate consent. What constitutes a change in the character will depend on on the nature of the proposed works and the nature of the listing (what specifically is listed and why - for example the steps might be an integral part of the listing). Without knowing the details of either it is impossible to form an opinion about whether the ramp would be appropriate or not. Even they don't alter the character of the building, the council are correct to say that works cannot be done without prior approval - planning permission may also be needed. Disability discrimination requires that "reasonable" adjustments be made - adjustments that require changes to the character of a listed building are not normally going to be reasonable. I do actually know all this. I just find it rather sad that despite all the hyperbole about equal rights legislation and an inclusive society, the rights of the disabled take second place to aesthetic considerations regarding an area that is not even visible to the general public.
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Post by Chris M on May 21, 2018 20:22:40 GMT
You are completely missing the point, which is that sympathetic changes to listed buildings can take place but what is and is not sympathetic and appropriate development must be determined in advance. The considerations are not just aesthetic but also historical, cultural, structural, architectural and what is proportional among others - including the purpose of the change. Whether something is visible to the general public may or may not be relevant - it depends on the context you haven't given us.
While the specific case you are talking about may be an example of completely sensitive development (you haven't given anywhere near enough information for us to judge) the rule is a bright-line one designed for simplicity and to be able to catch all proposed changes of whatever intention, utility and quality. It's quite possible that had permission been sought in advance that it would have been given either as is or with only minor amendments or an alternative solution to the problem approved instead.
It is not about the rights of disabled people taking second place, it is about striking a balance between the needs of disabled people and preservation of our cultural heritage (and other considerations). This is why all the legislation talks about reasonable adjustments - which all but a very small minority of people who need the adjustments are in favour of. In the case of a listed building, it is reasonable to require advance consent for works that may have a significant impact on the character of the building.
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Post by croxleyn on May 21, 2018 20:46:59 GMT
Even further off original topic, what's the value of "cultural heritage", compared with irreplaceable Ancient Woodland, teaming with wildlife, that the planners want to desecrate with a new HS2 railway???
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Post by Chris M on May 21, 2018 21:01:13 GMT
Like almost all "what is the value of X compared Y" questions (including combination of "cultural heritage", "ancient woodland", "disabled access" (for any variety of "disabled"), "progress", "better connectivity", etc, there isn't a single answer (let along a single right one) as there are dozens (if not thousands) of details about the individual that need to be considered.
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Post by MoreToJack on May 21, 2018 22:56:20 GMT
Can we get back to the topic at hand please folks.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jun 4, 2018 13:23:21 GMT
The District Line action at Acton Town and strikes proposed for 6 and 14 June have been suspended.
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