towerman
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Post by towerman on Feb 16, 2018 13:12:48 GMT
Will the first converted units be able to run on the same power supply as DC units?Also I take it AC & DC units will not be able to run together.
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Post by 100andthirty on Feb 16, 2018 13:23:32 GMT
Yes, both the present DC Chopper traction system and the three phase AC systems will operate from the 3rd/4th rail system. Once they are all in service it's possible that some change to the traction supply protection settings might take place. There's no reason in principle why AC and DC units shouldn't run together. LU might, however decide for reasons other than the traction packages (eg other modified systems) to keep modified and in-modified units separate.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 16, 2018 15:05:56 GMT
SWT converted all its class 455s to AC traction motors within the last two years of the franchise, but not the younger class 456s. These seem to work together in the same train quite happily.
Note that even if both the power supply and the motors are AC, you have to convert from 50Hz AC to DC and then to variable-frequency ac.
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Post by domh245 on Feb 16, 2018 15:36:32 GMT
As noted, you should be easily able to run a DC motored train and an AC motored train together, the supply is remaining the same, and any/all of the enabling works to allow the operation of the AC motored trains (such as track circuit alteration) will not prevent DC motored trains from running. However, it is worth pointing out that even with all reasonable steps taken, the performance of a DC train and an AC train will not necessarily match - there were plenty of reports from SWT drivers about trains formed of an AC unit and a DC unit either pulling or pushing together whilst motoring and braking because they weren't quite identically performing - so it may well be the case that LU try to avoid running mixed trainsets for that reason.
Tangentially related, but how often do the Central line 2-car units get swapped around? It may well be the case that there aren't many opportunities for mixed trainsets to be formed. With my thinking cap on as well, I can imagine that LU would try to keep trainsets together to prevent situations where you've got a DC motored unit in the middle of a train that needs to be released for conversion - easy enough to rectify but better if avoided.
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Post by 100andthirty on Feb 16, 2018 16:23:56 GMT
domh245........".....but how often do the Central line 2-car units get swapped around?" A lot more frequently than anyone would reasonably assume!
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Feb 16, 2018 16:27:31 GMT
Thanks for the info.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2018 17:33:35 GMT
I would also be interested to see how conversion affects ATO. Will miss have to be made? I hope we don't end up with a horrible jerky ride like the Jubilee.
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Post by domh245 on Feb 16, 2018 18:20:24 GMT
I would also be interested to see how conversion affects ATO. Will miss have to be made? I hope we don't end up with a horrible jerky ride like the Jubilee. As I understand it, the Jerky ride of the Jubilee and Northern lines is as a result of the train-based part of the ATO system only having "brake" and "accelerate" as options, and isn't related to the traction package. I wouldn't expect the retractioning to start messing around with the ATO system - it should just be replacing the traction system alone, everything upstream of that (ie the onboard computers, controls, etc) should all be remaining the same
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2018 6:01:52 GMT
I would also be interested to see how conversion affects ATO. Will miss have to be made? I hope we don't end up with a horrible jerky ride like the Jubilee. As I understand it, the Jerky ride of the Jubilee and Northern lines is as a result of the train-based part of the ATO system only having "brake" and "accelerate" as options, and isn't related to the traction package. I wouldn't expect the retractioning to start messing around with the ATO system - it should just be replacing the traction system alone, everything upstream of that (ie the onboard computers, controls, etc) should all be remaining the same I agree the Victoria line proves that AC traction and ATO can provide a good ride. Currently the AGO provides a smooth ride on flat gradients say SNA-LES the train maintains a good 65kph without any on and off motoring. However with DC motors they don't provide punchy acceleration, as it reduces the higher the speed. Whereas AC motors maintain their acceleration no matter what speed. Not knowing how ATO drives the train perhaps it does run the motors on and off. Or maybe it just runs them at the precise amount to maintain speed. So if it does run the motors on and off we don't notice it at the moment with the DC motors, but come AC this will be noticeable. Who knows, I suppose we will have to wait and find out!
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Post by croxleyn on Feb 17, 2018 18:57:39 GMT
Will these new inverters provide regenerative braking? I know it's easy with a DC controller but they weren't generally implemented. Then there's the issue of how high do you allow the rail voltage to rise, especially with DC stock still on the tracks.
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Post by A60stock on Feb 17, 2018 19:24:40 GMT
when will the first unit converted be tested or due in service?
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Post by 100andthirty on Feb 17, 2018 20:23:19 GMT
Will these new inverters provide regenerative braking? I know it's easy with a DC controller but they weren't generally implemented. Then there's the issue of how high do you allow the rail voltage to rise, especially with DC stock still on the tracks. Central line DC choppers have been operating with regenerative braking for many years. Peak voltage is capped at 790V (630V plus 25% rounded to nearest 10). The AC traction will have regenerative braking. I don't know whether peak regenerated current or voltage will be raised.
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