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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2017 12:13:41 GMT
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Post by ducatisti on Nov 29, 2017 12:39:46 GMT
bearing in mind the budget promised lots (a million?) new homes in the "oxford/Cambridge zone", one would hope the line between them is on the list
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Post by trt on Nov 29, 2017 12:48:15 GMT
bearing in mind the budget promised lots (a million?) new homes in the "oxford/Cambridge zone", one would hope the line between them is on the list One would also hope that the line will have interchange stations with the numerous north-south lines it intersects e.g. HS2 at Calvert!
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cso
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Post by cso on Nov 29, 2017 12:59:40 GMT
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gantshill
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Post by gantshill on Nov 29, 2017 13:28:49 GMT
.. I look forward to lots of really speedy rail (re)openings. Replacement bridges might be needed in some places where they were removed. It doesn't take long to sort out a new bridge, just like that very short link in Watford to join two short branches to make a through route. (I'll get my coat).
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Nov 29, 2017 14:26:28 GMT
.. I look forward to lots of really speedy rail (re)openings. Replacement bridges might be needed in some places where they were removed. It doesn't take long to sort out a new bridge, just like that very short link in Watford to join two short branches to make a through route. (I'll get my coat). You might need to collect your entire wardrobe after that.........
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Post by snoggle on Nov 29, 2017 14:50:05 GMT
Oh dear have we all been deceived by yet another "promise lots, provide no money, offer no commitment" announcement from Government?
I've been looking at the blizzard of stuff that's poured forth today as a lovely distraction tactic for another aspect of Government decision making guaranteed to get some people a bit cross.
In short it looks like the following
- restructure the East Coast franchise to secretly bail out the failing Stagecoach/Virgin franchise because NR can't deliver the track improvements in time. - consider restructuring the GWR franchise into two partly competing Inter City & Regional franchises - basically London - Bristol / S Wales / Cotswolds and Thames Valley in one and Berks and Hants / West of Reading / West Country services in another. This would mean three operators between London Paddington and Reading if we include MTR Crossrail. Strikes me as ludicrous but there you go. The Greenford branch could go to Chiltern - no option of it going to TfL allowed. - faffing around with "more cuddly, let's work together" Partnership or Alliance contracts for South Eastern, East Coast and Midland Main Line - splitting GTR into two or more franchises post 2021 with TfL possibly getting some scraps from the table such as the WLL Southern peak shuttles and possibly the East Croydon - Milton Keynes service (more likely curtailed to Watford if Tfl were to get it as I can't see TfL being allowed to grab a share of West Coast revenue north of Watford). - the "carrot dangling" of line reopenings has been done before and we've got precisely nowhere with it other than the stirling work of Chiltern Railways and the use of the planning process at Barking Riverside to force developers into coughing up money if they want to build any more than a few thousand homes. The irony of the Barking Riverside extension being quoted as a model of private sector funding is immense when it all hinges on a planning condition for the redevelopment. I can't believe this government is minded to use the planning process in such a forceful way to get money from developers to build railway lines / stations. The other irksome aspect of the "Line reopening" thing is the apparent desire to make local authorities responsible for funding and implementation thus carefully shoving responsibility away from the DfT. There is NO money and NO commitment to open one inch of extra railway in today's announcement. It's a massive smoke screen that was done several times by George Osborne and look how much of what he proposed has been cancelled by Mr Grayling on the grounds of unaffordability / no business case.
Only believe any of this when the money is handed over and a firm, deliverable plan is in place with guaranteed funding.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Nov 29, 2017 20:44:03 GMT
Only believe any of this when the money is handed over and a firm, deliverable plan is in place with guaranteed funding. And even then don't bet your house on it happening - wait until the infrastructure is complete.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Nov 30, 2017 9:10:46 GMT
Some more factually correct headlines (that have not actually appeared - yet).
Government could reopen Whitstable to Canterbury line. HS2 could be built as MagLev. A new bridge could be built across the channel to take road traffic.
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Post by theblackferret on Nov 30, 2017 10:25:45 GMT
Before anybody bursts their boiler spluttering with indignation at the way the BBC for example have swallowed this hook line & sinker or splits their sides laughing at it, just a couple of salient points for the record: 1) Most closed railway lines were built in an era of dirt-cheap readily-available labour. 2) The only alternatives to catching the train at the time were horse & cart or shanks's pony. 3) Since closure, many disused lines have been sold off piecemeal and scattered with significant amounts of bungalows, industrial estates etc, meaning compulsory purchase & compensation no longer might involve diverting to dodge the cost of putting it through the local ducal estates, it will involve compensating scores of Toms, Dicks & Harriets instead. 4) The quoted cost & any associated BCR's will undoubtedly be wildly wrong-just notice how my 'couple' of salient points have become four.
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Post by revupminster on Nov 30, 2017 12:10:14 GMT
The government only seems to be promoting lines that already have plans. Okehampton to Exeter is already there; but needs signaling improvements and some of the double track relaid as passing points in the short term.
Paignton-Goodrington possible with some track alterations (already two platforms); maybe onto Kingswear. Churston - Brixham no chance.
There's a group promoting Newton Abbot-Heathfield. The tracks there, some still in use but, unlikely to be more than another heritage railway.
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Post by theblackferret on Nov 30, 2017 18:20:41 GMT
The government only seems to be promoting lines that already have plans. Okehampton to Exeter is already there; but needs signaling improvements and some of the double track relaid as passing points in the short term. Paignton-Goodrington possible with some track alterations (already two platforms); maybe onto Kingswear. Churston - Brixham no chance. There's a group promoting Newton Abbot-Heathfield. The tracks there, some still in use but, unlikely to be more than another heritage railway. Most interesting set there, and they all mask another problem with the whole idea, in that passenger trains, or at least a regular service, last ran 45 years ago from Okehampton to Exeter & much longer vide Newton Abbot-Heathfield. That means over two generations of people living along the line who've got used to the convenience and cheapness of the car.
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Post by revupminster on Nov 30, 2017 23:03:47 GMT
The government only seems to be promoting lines that already have plans. Okehampton to Exeter is already there; but needs signaling improvements and some of the double track relaid as passing points in the short term. Paignton-Goodrington possible with some track alterations (already two platforms); maybe onto Kingswear. Churston - Brixham no chance. There's a group promoting Newton Abbot-Heathfield. The tracks there, some still in use but, unlikely to be more than another heritage railway. Most interesting set there, and they all mask another problem with the whole idea, in that passenger trains, or at least a regular service, last ran 45 years ago from Okehampton to Exeter & much longer vide Newton Abbot-Heathfield. That means over two generations of people living along the line who've got used to the convenience and cheapness of the car. True but Exeter is a fast growing city attracting commuters from all over Devon making car travel more difficult. It already has 8 stations with 1 more planned, another proposed, and a satellite town to the east, Cranbrook. Exeter Central passenger count is catching up with St David's. Paignton and Torquay (4th and 3rd largest in Devon) are to get a half hour service to Exeter. Exmouth (5th largest) want a 15 minute service to Exeter. Half hour service to Plymouth and Penzance using shortened HST's next year. Rail capacity will be struggling in a few years time. Commuter traffic has fallen in London for the first time. why? Jobs are beginning to follow the commuters out of London to where the people commute from.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Nov 30, 2017 23:11:49 GMT
Commuter traffic has fallen in London for the first time. why? Jobs are beginning to follow the commuters out of London to where the people commute from. If only the funding for rail improvements would too!
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Post by melikepie on Nov 30, 2017 23:20:19 GMT
Exeter Central passenger count is catching up with St David's. Paignton and Torquay (4th and 3rd largest in Devon) are to get a half hour service to Exeter. Exmouth (5th largest) want a 15 minute service to Exeter. Half hour service to Plymouth and Penzance using shortened HST's next year. Rail capacity will be struggling in a few years time. Wharton the source on these supposed timetable improvements?
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Post by revupminster on Dec 1, 2017 0:13:52 GMT
Exeter Central passenger count is catching up with St David's. Paignton and Torquay (4th and 3rd largest in Devon) are to get a half hour service to Exeter. Exmouth (5th largest) want a 15 minute service to Exeter. Half hour service to Plymouth and Penzance using shortened HST's next year. Rail capacity will be struggling in a few years time. Wharton the source on these supposed timetable improvements? Modern railways and UK railways Today are the main source. As 800 ICT's and are introduced from this October the displaced HST's are off to have power doors fitted for use by Scot Rail and GWR in 2+4 units. The south west should get their 802's ICT's in May as they are delivered from Hitachi factory in Italy.
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Post by stapler on Dec 1, 2017 21:49:48 GMT
Reopening lines will depend on huge residential and other developments. Hence Cambridge - Oxford. Ongar and North Weald are slated for big developments and are reliant on hopeless bus services. Stansted to Dunmow? Audley End to Saffron Walden?
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Post by spsmiler on Dec 2, 2017 22:30:14 GMT
I am sceptical. OK, fine words but...
I will only believe when the trains are running - even start of construction works counts for nothing with me; trains must be running. After all, experience has shown that construction works can be halted midway.
Simon
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Post by stapler on Dec 3, 2017 11:32:12 GMT
And of course even then sps, remember Sinfin?
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Post by jukes on Dec 3, 2017 17:40:08 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2017 16:32:54 GMT
Rather than reopening new/old routes the challenge is to upgrade tracks to carry 120/140 mph trains. We don't even have a proposed route yet for Transpennine "HS3" but Hull-Leeds-Huddersfield-Manchester looks likely "HS3" will require feeder routes.
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Post by Tomcakes on Dec 4, 2017 17:47:08 GMT
As stated by other contributors, seeing is believing.
Unfortunately, for politicians of any colour, projects of this size are not worth it - by the time the benefits come through they will be retired, out of office, etc. So why bother about the long term when you can rehash some press releases?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 4, 2017 17:52:10 GMT
We don't even have a proposed route yet for Transpennine "HS3" but Hull-Leeds-Huddersfield-Manchester looks likely Why Hull (pop 260,000) rather than South Humberside (331,000)? or indeed York/Teesside/Tyneside? Why Huddersfield (437,000 for Kirklees as a whole) rather than Bradford (534,300)? or Sheffield (575,400)? The North is not the South or even the Midlands, where a single metropolitan centre predominates. Serving only four of the population centres in the region is not going to be enough to truly boost the regional economy as a whole. A high speed link connecting just four of the major centres in the north of England (and not even the largest four) is not going to be the answer. A network of fast links is needed - something more akin to the Ruhr S-Bahn. Over the short distances involved, acceleration is more important than ultra-high speed. A triangular limited- stop Leeds - Manchester - Sheffield network would be a start, other express routes feeding in to those three nodes. Whether it's best as a star (with a three-way junction in the Holmfirth area) or as a circle (which would provide double the capacity, but require less than twice as much building - but including two Pennine tunnels) is open for debate. The Sheffield/Leeds leg might be duplicated by HS2, but there are several major population centres on the way (Barnsley, Wakefield) which are large enough to require serving as a part of a limited stop regional network. Say Sheffield - Rotherham - Barnsley - Wakefield - Leeds - Bradford - Huddersfield - Rochdale - Manchester - Stockport - Sheffield. That's a loop of about 120 miles, so each of those stations would be no more than 60 miles, and five stops, from any other. Laid out for 125mph speeds, a maximum journey time of less than an hour should be possible (most centres would be much less)
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Post by spsmiler on Dec 4, 2017 17:55:27 GMT
And of course even then sps, remember Sinfin? Actually, I had to research before saying anything here, as I did not know about this. I am somewhat surprised, but question how much the railway tried to make itself attractive to local people. Or was it that the railway really did not want the service and applied similar passenger repellant operating logic as it did to former Broad Street services in London? Simon
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Post by afarlie on Dec 5, 2017 18:10:19 GMT
Rather than reopening new/old routes the challenge is to upgrade tracks to carry 120/140 mph trains. We don't even have a proposed route yet for Transpennine "HS3" but Hull-Leeds-Huddersfield-Manchester looks likely "HS3" will require feeder routes. Had they not closed a certain electrified Pennine route in 1980.... <seethe fume sound of teeth grinding>
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 5, 2017 18:38:48 GMT
Had they not closed a certain electrified Pennine route in 1980 Yes, but...... - If the electric infrastructure was in need of overhaul/ replacement by then, it certainly would be now. - it ran on DC, and would thus be incompatible with the rest of the electrified network. - it went nowhere near any of the major population centres in West Yorkshire. However, most of the trackbed is still there, and could be used as two arms of a Manchester/Leeds/Sheffield triangular network, with a third arm from somewhere near Penistone to Leeds. The Sheffield/Leeds side might even be part of HS2. But as I've said before, serving just the three major centres (four, if you extend to Liverpool) doesn't serve the North well. You need connections to and between large towns as well - Huddersfield, Barnsley, Rochdale, Wigan etc. The North is more of a "plum pudding" with no single nucleus, rather than a "sun and planets" like the South of England or even the West Midlands
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Post by theblackferret on Dec 5, 2017 20:04:21 GMT
Had they not closed a certain electrified Pennine route in 1980 Yes, but...... - If the electric infrastructure was in need of overhaul/ replacement by then, it certainly would be now. - it ran on DC, and would thus be incompatible with the rest of the electrified network. - it went nowhere near any of the major population centres in West Yorkshire. However, most of the trackbed is still there, and could be used as two arms of a Manchester/Leeds/Sheffield triangular network, with a third arm from somewhere near Penistone to Leeds. The Sheffield/Leeds side might even be part of HS2. But as I've said before, serving just the three major centres (four, if you extend to Liverpool) doesn't serve the North well. You need connections to and between large towns as well - Huddersfield, Barnsley, Rochdale, Wigan etc. The North is more of a "plum pudding" with no single nucleus, rather than a "sun and planets" like the South of England or even the West Midlands The other thing with NFVNF (Northern Fastline Vide Norbiton Flyer ) is the number of disused branches that could plug into that system, possibly as new light-rail routes.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2017 20:18:03 GMT
We don't even have a proposed route yet for Transpennine "HS3" but Hull-Leeds-Huddersfield-Manchester looks likely Why Hull (pop 260,000) rather than South Humberside (331,000)? or indeed York/Teesside/Tyneside? Why Huddersfield (437,000 for Kirklees as a whole) rather than Bradford (534,300)? or Sheffield (575,400)? The North is not the South or even the Midlands, where a single metropolitan centre predominates. Serving only four of the population centres in the region is not going to be enough to truly boost the regional economy as a whole. A high speed link connecting just four of the major centres in the north of England (and not even the largest four) is not going to be the answer. A network of fast links is needed - something more akin to the Ruhr S-Bahn. Over the short distances involved, acceleration is more important than ultra-high speed. A triangular limited- stop Leeds - Manchester - Sheffield network would be a start, other express routes feeding in to those three nodes. Whether it's best as a star (with a three-way junction in the Holmfirth area) or as a circle (which would provide double the capacity, but require less than twice as much building - but including two Pennine tunnels) is open for debate. The Sheffield/Leeds leg might be duplicated by HS2, but there are several major population centres on the way (Barnsley, Wakefield) which are large enough to require serving as a part of a limited stop regional network. Say Sheffield - Rotherham - Barnsley - Wakefield - Leeds - Bradford - Huddersfield - Rochdale - Manchester - Stockport - Sheffield. That's a loop of about 120 miles, so each of those stations would be no more than 60 miles, and five stops, from any other. Laid out for 125mph speeds, a maximum journey time of less than an hour should be possible (most centres would be much less) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Speed_3
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Dec 5, 2017 21:07:39 GMT
Nobody seems quite clear what/where HS3 will be, not surprising really as it's a dormant company owned by D fT. Which isn't perhaps unexpected given that HS4, HS5 and HS6 are all similarly dormant.
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Post by 35b on Dec 5, 2017 22:38:06 GMT
Had they not closed a certain electrified Pennine route in 1980 Yes, but...... - If the electric infrastructure was in need of overhaul/ replacement by then, it certainly would be now. - it ran on DC, and would thus be incompatible with the rest of the electrified network. - it went nowhere near any of the major population centres in West Yorkshire. However, most of the trackbed is still there, and could be used as two arms of a Manchester/Leeds/Sheffield triangular network, with a third arm from somewhere near Penistone to Leeds. The Sheffield/Leeds side might even be part of HS2. But as I've said before, serving just the three major centres (four, if you extend to Liverpool) doesn't serve the North well. You need connections to and between large towns as well - Huddersfield, Barnsley, Rochdale, Wigan etc. The North is more of a "plum pudding" with no single nucleus, rather than a "sun and planets" like the South of England or even the West Midlands And, let’s not forget, it had speed limits of 65 mph max.
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