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Post by frankpick on May 28, 2006 18:09:49 GMT
What stock was the first to have an accident attributable to its design
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Post by Chris W on May 28, 2006 18:42:50 GMT
Surely not the 92ts following the Chancery Lane derailment... Probably way way to recent
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prjb
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Post by prjb on May 28, 2006 19:48:26 GMT
It could well be Chris, most of our 'mishaps' have been down to human error.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2006 20:13:53 GMT
Didn't the D-stock have a derailment due it's bogies?
I'm sure there have been accidents down to train design in the past. Has LU ever had any serious fires, such as the one that occured on the Paris metro early in the 1900s which was down to traction control design?
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Post by Chris W on May 28, 2006 20:58:43 GMT
Didn't the D-stock have a derailment due it's bogies? I'm aware of 7100 "Silver Streak" which tried to extend the District Line beyond Richmond... but as I understand it that was due to grease having been wiped on the rails after being applied to points by a member of staff who failed to engage brain Also I know of D78 doing the splits at various locations, but not of design flaws
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Post by CSLR on May 28, 2006 21:10:52 GMT
What stock was the first to have an accident attributable to its design There will have been many incidents that have happened as a result of design problems. If we go back to the line that I have the greatest interest in, that is certainly the case. We have previously discussed how the Ashbury carriages hit the sides of the tunnels on the curve at King William Street as the result of a design fault. The carriages had been designed to fit the tunnels and the curves, but some curves were tighter than planned. Unfortunately the specifications of the carriages were not altered before they were delivered, resulting in the problem. I think that there will be a whole chain of accidents that can be found on various lines, if you know where to look. The question must arise though, how do you define an accident for the purpose of this question?
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prjb
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Post by prjb on May 28, 2006 21:22:14 GMT
Has LU ever had any serious fires, such as the one that occured on the Paris metro early in the 1900s which was down to traction control design? Not really serious and not entirely down to traction control, but we did have a 'C' Stock on an Edgware Road service go up in flames at High Street Ken a few years back. This was due to earthing problems both on the train and the traction current section at the same time.
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Post by agoodcuppa on May 28, 2006 21:23:37 GMT
What about the fire on the Picc in the early eighties?
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Tom
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Post by Tom on May 28, 2006 22:19:41 GMT
What about the fire on the Picc in the early eighties? Not really, more a combination of trains with earths and trackside power supply faults causing a fire.
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Phil
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Post by Phil on May 28, 2006 22:19:58 GMT
The question must arise though, how do you define an accident for the purpose of this question? And how do you define design? Every mechanical failure (such as the fire on the Central with the Standard stock in the 50s) is ultimately down to design, namely that the design engineers never even considered that ( such and such) could happen under ( these) conditions. That goes for almost all mechanical failures whether they cause accidents or not.
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Post by TMBA on May 28, 2006 22:41:43 GMT
Maybe the D stock when the motors came through the carriage floor at Turnham Green in the early 80s and chewed up about a half a mile of track because of a design flaw in the bogies, this has happened again at St James park mid 90s and caused the whole fleet to be withdrawn from service and the later bogie replacement programme taking place.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2006 22:59:21 GMT
What replaced the D stocks during that time that they were out of commision? C stocks?
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Post by mandgc on May 29, 2006 0:11:56 GMT
1863- 'Design' or 'Failure to Test before Acceptance' ?
When the GWR whithdrew their Broad Guage trains and a hurriedly arranged Standard Guage Service was introduced on the Mixed Guage track there were a number of derailments due to the Standard Guage rail being not properly aligned.
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Post by TMBA on May 29, 2006 6:45:56 GMT
What replaced the D stocks during that time that they were out of commision? C stocks? The Turnham Green incident happened on the late turn so they stowed most of the fleet and ran half a dozen or so trains to finish the service after carrying out quick checks on a dozen or so trains before hand. When I booked on the next day only a handful of trains were available for service and they were running a shuttle service IE Upminster to Barking - Barking to Whitechapel etc it took about a week to get a full service running again. I imagine the same thing applied to the St James incident. The frightening thing is both Drivers never new anything about it till they got pulled down because they said they never felt a thing because the D stock is so lightweight, same applies to locked axles - drivers never feel a thing because the motors are so good and the train is so light you just drive through it.
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Post by CSLR on May 29, 2006 7:35:14 GMT
There is another point to consider. The first electric locomotives had only three simple controls; an air-brake handle, a hand brake handle and a forward/reverse controller (there was no reverser switch and no deadman). Cabs today are filled with buttons and switches, all of which have been added because they are considered essential. Some have been placed there as a direct result of accidents. Because the design and operation of railways is regulated by a government department, this means that some of the design changes were made as a result of accidents/incidents that occurred on other railways or even in other countries. We can therefore say that the lack of the majority of these buttons may be considered to have been a design error on the original locomotives.
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Post by frankpick on May 29, 2006 20:39:41 GMT
Surely not the 92ts following the Chancery Lane derailment... Probably way way to recent I think Chris takes the prize. As far as I know the first accident solely due to a design fault was the TS92 Chancery Lane accident. Interestingly, this is the first stock not designed in-house!
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Post by mandgc on May 29, 2006 23:47:27 GMT
1905 -
When Metropolitan Electric trains first ran on the District Railway some Positive Shoes displaced outside fourth rails due, I think, to the shoes being placed in front of the leading wheels and not at the Centre Line of the bogie wheelbase.
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Post by Harsig on May 30, 2006 10:43:46 GMT
1905 - When Metropolitan Electric trains first ran on the District Railway some Positive Shoes displaced outside fourth rails due, I think, to the shoes being placed in front of the leading wheels and not at the Centre Line of the bogie wheelbase. Ah you're thinking of the first day of electric services on the Circle Line, which turned into just another typical day for that particular service The date was 1st July 1905 when it was decided that electric working would be introduced on the Outer Rail only. Metropolitan Electric working started at 5:48 am from Aldgate, seven Circle Line trains getting round over the MDR lines, the last three with difficulty, arriving back late. An eighth train did complete the journey over this section but only by being hauled over part of the route by a steam locomotive, arriving back on the Met over three hours late. As soon as the trouble started an electric shuttle service was organised between South Kensington and Aldgate via Kings Cross and this worked well enough for the rest of the day. The problem arose from three causes. The District at Hammersmith had been flooded by an early morning torrential downpour and this had been followed be a derailment at Mill Hill Park which added to the chaos. However the principal problem was, as the Met report put it, because 'the District road "gave out" at several places'. It seems that the manner in which the collecting shoes had been fixed to the Met cars caused them to slip off the MDR positive conductor rails on some of the sharper curves, overturning the rails or damaging the supports, although there was no similar problem on the Met's own tracks. Eventually the decision was taken to modify the fixings for the the collector shoes so the matched those use by the District and a partial electric Circle service was introduced from 13th September 1905 with a full electric service in both directions form 24th September.
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Post by mandgc on May 30, 2006 23:47:25 GMT
What more can I say ? :-)
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2006 7:46:23 GMT
Wasn't there a fire invoving a tube stock with a power bus line?
Sam
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Post by mandgc on Jun 2, 2006 5:00:08 GMT
Power Bus Line Fires -
A number of fires were started in the Receptacle Box of Standard Stock Motor Cars. These were to take a Power Bus Line in Depots where no Current Rails were provided. Short Circuits were caused in the unused boxes when the train was out on the Line. As the trains were then about 30 years old this could more properly be called a 'Maintenance Failure"
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