Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2017 13:30:51 GMT
This week (W/C 19/11/17) there was a TV programme featuring the Central line of the London Underground. One of the subjects featured was the high rates of track wear (and presumably wheel wear) caused by the curving nature of the Central Line route. Forgive me if this has been discussed previously, but it occurs to me that perhaps here is a call for the use of a radical rethink on the running gear. I was thinking about either steerable axles or variations of the Talgo as with the Copenhagen suburban lines with relatively short 'single axle' articulated cars; although with the Talgo, the axle is only 'virtual'. The 2 wheels are independent. Have such matters been discussed before?
|
|
|
Post by alpinejohn on Nov 24, 2017 14:25:58 GMT
The issue runs wider than just the Central - and perhaps the right place for this thread is in Signalling and Track?
Inherently the curvy nature of many tube lines is largely a legacy of minimising property owners compensation claims during their initial construction by keeping most of the tunnelling under existing streets. The cost and disruption of trying to straighten out even just the most severe locations is huge especially for an intensely worked line like the Central line.
Over the years the corollary of bendy tracks and enhanced track and rolling stock wear is well known. Various ideas have been explored to reduce the overall cost - For instance I vaguely recall seeing pictures of a semi articulated 38 stock. Inherently whilst the physical space for a bogie remains little changed, the scope for radical change is limited as most modern stock has lots more going on within a typical bogie than just supporting the carriage weight. More wheels tend to be driven, all tend to be braked, most have some sort of suspension/damping, many also carry masses of cabling for power collection and regeneration, wheel slip protection and other sensors. Which is great when they all work well, but the more you jam into the same physical space the harder it is to maintain (for instance changing braking surfaces) and keep all this stuff in good order.
Inherently rolling stock suppliers have invested heavily to improve bogie and axle designs over the year and inherently make their product best suited to the majority of their customers needs. However that historical legacy means that London tube lines are probably at the most extreme end in terms of customer requirements. Inevitably developing a bespoke design to ideally suit just a handful of lines with very infrequent orders, would be a huge gamble for any manufacturer to take especially in a competitive market where they have no certainty for orders, and cost rather than quality seems to be ranked far too highly in the purchasing department.
In pure competence terms, I feel sure manufacturers could still build stuff to robust IKB(Isambard Kingdom Brunel)standards. Sadly the current political environment is increasingly headline focused, and set against a fares freeze background, there is no real prospect the funds will be found to invest in that sort of development to deliver quality which would last and last.
|
|
|
Post by goldenarrow on Nov 24, 2017 15:45:30 GMT
|
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,761
|
Post by Chris M on Nov 24, 2017 18:22:41 GMT
I wonder if there is anything to be learned from the world of trams, where very tight radius curves and constrained space are commonplace?
|
|
rincew1nd
Administrator
Junior Under-wizzard of quiz
Posts: 10,286
|
Post by rincew1nd on Nov 24, 2017 20:19:23 GMT
I wonder if there is anything to be learned from the world of trams, where very tight radius curves and constrained space are commonplace? Having watched some of Manchester's trams negotiating the pointwork at Victoria... ...the thing that I learnt is that there is a lot of flange squeal. Flange squeal must equal track wear.
|
|
|
Post by John Tuthill on Nov 24, 2017 20:34:53 GMT
I wonder if there is anything to be learned from the world of trams, where very tight radius curves and constrained space are commonplace? Having watched some of Manchester's trams negotiating the pointwork at Victoria... ...the thing that I learnt is that there is a lot of flange squeal. Flange squeal must equal track wear. Looking at the rail layout, i wonder why the tram didn't go straight on across the diamond?
|
|
|
Post by domh245 on Nov 24, 2017 20:44:59 GMT
If I remember correctly, trams have a different wheel profile to conventional stock which would potentially require relaying all of the rails to ensure that the wheels and track interface properly. Also interesting to read on this wiki page that one way in which trams negotiate tight turns is to ride up onto the flange to help turn them (which will probably be one of the sources of the squeal that rincew1nd noted)
|
|
rincew1nd
Administrator
Junior Under-wizzard of quiz
Posts: 10,286
|
Post by rincew1nd on Nov 24, 2017 20:48:31 GMT
I too have often wondered why a single-slip wasn't installed here. I can't think of a location on Metrolink with one though so my thinking is that they just wanted to stick to what they know and use simple pointwork. Edit to add: If I remember correctly, trams have a different wheel profile to conventional stock which would potentially require relaying all of the rails to ensure that the wheels and track interface properly. Also interesting to read on this wiki page that one way in which trams negotiate tight turns is to ride up onto the flange to help turn them (which will probably be one of the sources of the squeal that rincew1nd noted) An interesting point, but look closely and you'll see that the above is laid with traditional rail, converting to tramway rail behind the tram. I'm not sure how a tram running on its flanges would cause more squeal as if anything there is less interaction between flange and rail.
|
|
|
Post by stapler on Nov 25, 2017 9:57:14 GMT
This week (W/C 19/11/17) there was a TV programme featuring the Central line of the London Underground. One of the subjects featured was the high rates of track wear (and presumably wheel wear) caused by the curving nature of the Central Line route. Forgive me if this has been discussed previously, but it occurs to me that perhaps here is a call for the use of a radical rethink on the running gear. I was thinking about either steerable axles or variations of the Talgo as with the Copenhagen suburban lines with relatively short 'single axle' articulated cars; although with the Talgo, the axle is only 'virtual'. The 2 wheels are independent. Have such matters been discussed before? What TV programme was this?
|
|
|
Post by goldenarrow on Nov 25, 2017 11:28:06 GMT
|
|
|
Post by ducatisti on Nov 27, 2017 9:47:06 GMT
Trams travel quite slowly, and weigh less - I assume this means there is a lot less lateral force when they take such angles. (When I lived in Brussels, I did manage to go round the tram roundabout once or twice... that was pretty bonkers for flange squeal)
If you have articulated stock, then the cars have to be above the bogies to allow the necessary movement I think? so smaller wheels needed and so a whole new set of problems.
In answer to the OP - if track wear was the only criteria, then yes, various solutions could be found, but the pay-offs for them generally make them not the least-worst solution for all parts considered as a whole/.
|
|
|
Post by stapler on Nov 27, 2017 14:00:38 GMT
How did Trevithick get on with his Catch-me-who-can and its circular track?
|
|
|
Post by ducatisti on Nov 27, 2017 16:22:03 GMT
very slowly...
joking aside, short wheelbases and slow running mean much less lateral forces. Also the fact he used iron might have changed the frequency it would "ring" at.
also - how do we know it didn't - I doubt anyone in the crowd would know what flange squeal was amongst the mass of hissings, clankings, squealings etc that it would have produced.
|
|
|
Post by countryman on Nov 27, 2017 21:12:42 GMT
The fact that the wheels are mounted fixed on axles will cause wear, no matter what lateral forces occur. If a train traverses a 90 degree bend, the outer wheels will travel about 8 feet further than the inner wheel (assuming standard gauge) so there must be some slip. Obviously the effect will be greater the smaller the radius of the bend.
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 27, 2017 23:37:12 GMT
Trevithick could have solved that problem by making one wheel bigger than the other. Not a very useful solution for general use though!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2017 8:20:56 GMT
Thanks to all who replied on this one. I take the points about the return and investment aspect for constructors but I would have thought that there may be a case of applying/adapting an existing technology or once an appropriate technology has been developed, then applying this to other metro/u-bahn systems around the world. Two points come to mind. Firstly the Virgin Pendolino sets do have steerable axles within the bogies. Now admittedly this is for high speed long distance travel but the technology is there. Secondly, the Vienna U-bahn line 6 does use trams/light rail vehicles in place of conventional U-bahn stock. I presume that the shorter bogie wheelbase of trams would make them more suitable for tight radii track. However whether this would affect their suitability for higher speed sections, is another matter.
I would like to have some opinions about 'Talgo' type stock as on the Copenhagen S-Tog. I can see the advantages of independent wheel sand short vehicle lengths in overcoming the curvature problems. Many tram systems utilise similar arrangements in combination with hub motors, thereby reducing the underfloor space requirements, for 'low-floor' reasons.
|
|