roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
Posts: 1,275
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Post by roythebus on Oct 13, 2017 21:35:26 GMT
Somebody's just posted on the FB Metropolitan Railway group showing a Met electric loco at Paddington approaching the "suburban" station hauling a train of what appears to be GWR liveried coaches. It's probably pre-war.
Does anyone have any information as to the starting point and destination of such a train? Hammersmith H&C station to Aldgate maybe? Addison Road to Southend? A regular service or a special?
There is a debate on where the loco may have been changed. some speculate at Royal Oak, but that's not really feasible. As the train is approaching Paddington with what appears to be an arc from the collector shoes, it's probably moving too. Any ideas anyone?
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Post by trc666 on Oct 14, 2017 21:17:09 GMT
Southend would have been the District so unlikely to have been going there. Assuming it was a special and not just Hammersmith to Aldgate, it's possible it could have come from the Southern, up via Turnham Green and what is now the H&C to Ladbroke Grove etc?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 15, 2017 7:17:34 GMT
it's possible it could have come from the Southern, up via Turnham Green and what is now the H&C to Ladbroke Grove etc? No electric trains could have run from Turnham Green to Paddington via the connection at Hammersmith, because it was never electrified. According to CULG, the link between LSWR and H&C at Grove Road closed in 1910, and the "Disused Stations" website says it was removed in 1914, although the LSWR connection from Hammersmith to Olympia remained in use (but not electrified) until 1926. The suggestion on the RM web page is that it may be an afternoon empty stock working from a siding in the Westbourne Park area to Liverpool Street/ |
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
Posts: 1,275
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Post by roythebus on Oct 15, 2017 21:15:30 GMT
It appears that may be the case. The same picture was posted on RMweb a while ago and there was a lengthy thread on it. The GWR had some "cut down" stock for the Met services and it appears there were some through workings from Ealing Broadway and beyond to the city pre-WW2. If anyone's got any WTTs from that era it would be interesting to see.
The other suggestion from TRC66 above could also be the answer. Steam hauled from the Southern via Addison Road, change to electric loco via Ladbroke Grove to the city. Maybe a relic of the GWR broad gauge workings into and out of Victoria LCDR side?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2017 14:40:48 GMT
There were peak hour GWR trains from Southall, Windsor, Greenford, Uxbridge, West Drayton, Hayes (collectively known as "Through City Trains") that went to Liverpool St/Aldgate stopping at Paddington (plats 14&15 in those days), Edgware Road, Baker St, Farringdon.
There was a GWR Milk Train that went from Addison Road via the Latimer Road link to Westbourne Park and Paddington.
There were GWR Goods Trains to Smithfield that would have needed to gain the Widened Lines at Farringdon and these were probably steam hauled.
There was a GWR Coal Train from Old Oak Common to Addison Road and Hammersmith using the Latimer Road link.
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Post by grahamhewett on Nov 10, 2017 15:13:28 GMT
Just to add to @atlastrack 's comments, the loco change took place at Paddington, where there was an electrified slip road for the Met loco to come off. The services disappeared at the beginning of the war as far as I can see from the available timetables. The pictures I have seen of the Smithfield goods suggest they were steam worked by panniers; I have never seen any suggestion that Met electric locos ever hauled freight and there would hasrdly have been enough of them to do so, anyway.
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Post by John Tuthill on Nov 10, 2017 15:59:52 GMT
Just to add to @atlastrack 's comments, the loco change took place at Paddington, where there was an electrified slip road for the Met loco to come off. The services disappeared at the beginning of the war as far as I can see from the available timetables. The pictures I have seen of the Smithfield goods suggest they were steam worked by panniers; I have never seen any suggestion that Met electric locos ever hauled freight and there would hasrdly have been enough of them to do so, anyway. It had been done. A photo of a 'camelback' Met loco at Farringdon drawing goods wagons,circa 1910. Its on the London Transport Museum photo collection, ref:1998/87812 |
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Post by grahamhewett on Nov 10, 2017 16:15:28 GMT
john Tuthill - thanks for that. I wonder where , in the shot you mention, the electric loco would have picked up the wagons. Smithfield wasn't electrified, and the sidings at Moorgate and Liverpool St were for passenger services. In 1910, the ELL hadn't been electrified, so there must be only a limited number of options unless the shot was posed.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 10, 2017 16:26:58 GMT
john Tuthill - thanks for that. I wonder where , in the shot you mention, the electric loco would have picked up the wagons. Smithfield wasn't electrified, and the sidings at Moorgate and Liverpool St were for passenger services. In 1910, the ELL hadn't been electrified, so there must be only a limited number of options unless the shot was posed. Nit sure, but the caption says it's taken at "Farringdon Street goods depot", (is that the same as Smithfield depot?) and the track the loco is standing on appears to be electrified at least as far back as the second wagon www.londonreconnections.com/2012/in-pictures-a-walk-on-the-widened-lines/ |
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Post by grahamhewett on Nov 10, 2017 16:47:48 GMT
norbitonflyer Neither the 1881 RCH handbook nor my pre-group atlas, as at 1922, shows anything other than Smithfield GW and (on the other side of the tracks) Smithfield GN goods depots in the Farringdon area, so I'm not sure what Farringdon Street goods depot might be - may well be the same the GW depot (or the GN one!). I'll have a rummage amongst street atlases of the period to see whether there's anything else...
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Post by John Tuthill on Nov 10, 2017 16:56:13 GMT
john Tuthill - thanks for that. I wonder where , in the shot you mention, the electric loco would have picked up the wagons. Smithfield wasn't electrified, and the sidings at Moorgate and Liverpool St were for passenger services. In 1910, the ELL hadn't been electrified, so there must be only a limited number of options unless the shot was posed. Nit sure, but the caption says it's taken at "Farringdon Street goods depot", (is that the same as Smithfield depot?) and the track the loco is standing on appears to be electrified at least as far back as the second wagon www.londonreconnections.com/2012/in-pictures-a-walk-on-the-widened-lines/There was a Farringdon Road goods depot. It was owned by the GNR and was directly behind the station, bordering onto Farringdn Road. I've find a photo of it on the 'British History on line' web page. There is a long article on 'Farringdon Road' and towards the end it shows the goods depot 'circa 1977' Needless to say the site is now occupied by an office block. |
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Post by grahamhewett on Nov 10, 2017 16:59:13 GMT
norbitonflyer Neither the 1881 RCH handbook nor my pre-group atlas, as at 1922, shows anything other than Smithfield GW and (on the other side of the tracks) Smithfield GN goods depots in the Farringdon area, so I'm not sure what Farringdon Street goods depot might be - may well be the same the GW depot (or the GN one!). I'll have a rummage amongst street atlases of the period to see whether there's anything else... Got it! None of the above, but Vine Street, to the east of the Circle and north of Farringdon. This was wholly electric worked (I apologise for misleading people earlier) from its opening on 1 November 1910. It had two 7 wagons sidings. Electric traction took the trains as far as West Hampstead yard. I can't find a closure date, although by the late '20s, traffic was only about 300 tons/week. I imagine LT handed it over to the LNE along with the other Met freight operations - if it survived that long - but what traction was used then is unclear. Presumably LNE steam? |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 10, 2017 17:17:48 GMT
It looks very like the bridge on the left of this picture, but probably taken from the other side, so the siding will be on the left of this picture s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/02/25/86/2258625_9aef7cbb.jpgAerial view here Note the distinctive curved brickwork Got it! None of the above, but Vine Street, to the east of the Circle and north of Farringdon. Indeed, if you google images for Vine Street goods depot, guess what comes up as the first entry? The street level building is still there |
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Post by theblackferret on Nov 10, 2017 17:32:51 GMT
My late mother mentioned this-one of the neighbours when she was rehoused in Camberwell had worked there and got transferred across the river to a goods depot nearer home, when it closed.
I seem to remember she recollected this was either the year they moved to Glebe Estate (1935) or the year the Crystal Palace went up in flames (1936)-she was born in 1927 & this was mentioned around 1980-82 by her.
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Post by grahamhewett on Nov 10, 2017 17:37:57 GMT
And so to the ever popular Survey of London volume dealing with Clerkenwell (South and East) (2008) where the depot is specifically described as being on the north side of the Vine Street bridge. It was still there in 2008 with a corrugated iron facing to the railway and a sheer brick wall to the street. In 2008 it was still in LU ownership as the central workshop of the Lifts and Escalators engineer (others in LT may know more than the Survey about this), having been used for these purposes since the '50s. Whether the depot functioned until then is not stated The fact that the building is now in LU ownership (and therefore presumably ever since LT was formed) suggests that the freight operation was abandoned pretty quickly under LT, otherwise it would have been handed over.
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Post by grahamhewett on Nov 10, 2017 17:51:12 GMT
My late mother mentioned this-one of the neighbours when she was rehoused in Camberwell had worked there and got transferred across the river to a goods depot nearer home, when it closed. I seem to remember she recollected this was either the year they moved to Glebe Estate (1935) or the year the Crystal Palace went up in flames (1936)-she was born in 1927 & this was mentioned around 1980-82 by her. Now found a closure date for the Vine Street depot - 30 June 1936. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2017 14:39:35 GMT
Re Met locos used for "freight", I remember a photo in a book (can't remember which one) of a post-1920 rebuild Met loco picking up a single 10-ton wagon that was kept at Baker Street and used to shoot the rubbish from Chiltern Court. This presumably ended up at "Croxley Tip" and would have required a change of loco to steam at some point. This was latterly a job for the panniers.
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Post by grahamhewett on Nov 11, 2017 21:01:14 GMT
Re Met locos used for "freight", I remember a photo in a book (can't remember which one) of a post-1920 rebuild Met loco picking up a single 10-ton wagon that was kept at Baker Street and used to shoot the rubbish from Chiltern Court. This presumably ended up at "Croxley Tip" and would have required a change of loco to steam at some point. This was latterly a job for the panniers.
[ I believe this trip also took coal to Chiltern Court and was worked by a loco between the peaks. |
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