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Post by trt on Oct 9, 2017 11:41:11 GMT
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Post by superteacher on Oct 9, 2017 11:58:42 GMT
Odd that the London commuter lines showed a decline.
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Post by ducatisti on Oct 9, 2017 12:15:22 GMT
it would be interesting to correlate it against employment, both in absolute number and locations. How long does it take to change jobs? Would be interesting to see this figure against dissatisfaction the same length of time ago (ie how many people are dropping the commute now because they have finally found a new job elsewhere).
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Post by trt on Oct 9, 2017 12:26:07 GMT
Odd that the London commuter lines showed a decline. Mode switch due to the Southern disruption? Or the works at London Bridge? Or the loss of Thameslink? Or is the expansion of TfL Rail counted in these figures, confounding the use of Oyster and the traditional Annual ticket?
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Post by ducatisti on Oct 9, 2017 12:43:28 GMT
I wonder if it's the Hammersmith Bridge effect (I think that's the right one: when they closed one of the Thames road bridges, they expected traffic chaos the others, and had counters on each one, expecting to find the traffic flow from that bridge aggregate across the others. In fact a sizeable number simply didn't appear.)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2017 13:35:51 GMT
It’s easy to answer
Rubbish service (would love to use more choicer words but the profanity filter would kick in) Too expensive I do believe it’s the most expensive in Europe per mile on some routes
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Post by dagdave on Oct 9, 2017 13:41:28 GMT
Yep, the never ending rise in fares is finally showing and the debacle of Southern Rail must account for some of the fall.
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Post by snoggle on Oct 9, 2017 13:45:12 GMT
This topic has cropped up elsewhere and I've yet to see a clear response. I think several things are going on which makes it very difficult to know for certain what is going on.
I understand there has been a methodological change in how the stats are compiled e.g. what data sources are used. There are also all the issues others have set out above - industrial action on some TOCs, planned long term works affecting weekend and holiday travel, the timing of the Easter holidays (in different quarters last year and this). If we believe what users of GTR have said in the media then a proportion of them have stopped using trains altogether for their commute and others have changed jobs to remove the need to use trains. Those sorts of changes will appear in the longer term trend as having pulled down season ticket volumes permanently.
Being entirely speculative I think there is a softening in the London labour market and I think some people have moved away, left jobs and others have returned home to Europe in the light of wider political "issues" (ahem) currently being played out. All of TfL's numbers are below target and some modes are seeing negligible growth year on year. Clearly people can get their target setting wrong but I assume TfL have worked on the basis of expecting to see continued employment and population growth and a reasonable level of leisure related travel. There's not a huge slump in usage on TfL services but it isn't growing as per past trends either. Plenty in the media to suggest people are trimming back on discretionary expenditure which will dampen down shopping and leisure trips and that'll affect the main line as much as TfL.
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Post by revupminster on Oct 9, 2017 14:10:22 GMT
I would put it down to the massive house building going on in the County towns, Reading, Taunton, Exeter etc to cater for white flight and the jobs are following the labour.
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Post by phil on Oct 9, 2017 14:22:45 GMT
I would put it down to the massive house building going on in the County towns, Reading, Taunton, Exeter etc to cater for white flight and the jobs are following the labour. You might want to rethink your wording. While it is indeed true that in some parts of London the ethnic makeup (and indeed their wealth / average incomes) of its inhabitants has changed, such trends have been going on for four decades now - which covers both roughly two decades of decline but then almost two decades of growth in passenger numbers (and numerous recessions). I would also observe that its not all one way traffic - indeed one of the complaints from certain 'trendy'* areas of the capital is how locals (some of which may mostly be made up of folk not falling into the 'white Caucasian' tick box) are being pushed out by the rise in property prices in said 'hotspots / trendy' places by said 'White Caucasian' persons Also known as 'Gentrification' in some circles
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Post by theblackferret on Oct 9, 2017 14:32:28 GMT
Without venturing into the politics of it, the gig economy will also have had effects here.
How many people are there who once worked in the lower-paid end of things and could afford to commute to London to get better wages are now instead shuffling two or three more local part-time jobs instead, partly because they can't afford the time or the price of commuting?
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Post by theblackferret on Oct 9, 2017 14:36:47 GMT
I would put it down to the massive house building going on in the County towns, Reading, Taunton, Exeter etc to cater for white flight and the jobs are following the labour. You might want to rethink your wording. While it is indeed true that in some parts of London the ethnic makeup (and indeed their wealth / average incomes) of its inhabitants has changed, such trends have been going on for four decades now - which covers both roughly two decades of decline but then almost two decades of growth in passenger numbers (and numerous recessions). I would also observe that its not all one way traffic - indeed one of the complaints from certain 'trendy'* areas of the capital is how locals (some of which may mostly be made up of folk not falling into the 'white Caucasian' tick box) are being pushed out by the rise in property prices in said 'hotspots / trendy' places by said 'White Caucasian' persons Also known as 'Gentrification' in some circles Actually, for longer than that. Almost the precise reason my parents (principally my Mother) actually moved us out to Maidstone in 1963, although the price/mortgage issue was the 'party' line fed to me. Luckily, the attitude did not pass on to me.
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Post by trt on Oct 9, 2017 14:42:12 GMT
... in the light of wider political "issues" (ahem) currently being played out. ... Trexit? Trexodus? Ah, portmanteau words are currently trendy. Or "cundy", as we like to say.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 9, 2017 14:54:42 GMT
Is there much evidence of an increase in jobs in the counties and a corresponding decrease in London? If people are getting priced out of the London housing market, but the jobs are still there, you would expect commuting numbers, or at least distances, to rise. An example in the press only yesterday.
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Post by theblackferret on Oct 9, 2017 16:14:13 GMT
Is there much evidence of an increase in jobs in the counties and a corresponding decrease in London? If people are getting priced out of the London housing market, but the jobs are still there, you would expect commuting numbers, or at least distances, to rise. An example in the press only yesterday. I can only quote you in depth about my own street in north Plymouth, which is actually the only place the City can expand meaningfully, without building over the Sound. We moved here in April 1995 & there were four of five self-employed people in our 28-house street, only three (including me) who worked 'round the corner' in the Civil Service or down at the local Tesco-the rest commuted into Plymouth (vide Mrs tbf), across it or up to Exeter. Now, there are two self-employed left (both retired but still more than pottering) and twelve people from eight households working down the road, all bar three of these people at Tesco. There are also three Costa Baristas bombing out to various Plymouth locales,all by bus.
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class411
Operations: Normal
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Post by class411 on Oct 9, 2017 16:21:56 GMT
I would suspect that there are four things at play:
1) Disruptions 2) Methods of statistics gathering and subsequent analysis 3) Normal random fluctuations 4) Older people who started commuting when services were better stopping commuting, and not being replaced by younger workers who see the state of services and choose not to use rail.
We really need to see at least one more year's worth of data before we can even tentatively decide if this is part of a trend, or merely a singular anomaly.
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Post by revupminster on Oct 9, 2017 16:42:29 GMT
Plymouth with a population of a London borough is having a new town Sherford built to the East as is Exeter with Cranbrook again to the east, although with only an hourly train service for the 4/5 mile journey to Exeter Central does not encourage commuting.
Exeter is unusual in having eight stations (+ one propose) a population of 127,000 but a commuting area of 430,000 which includes Torbay (bigger population than Exeter), Barnstaple, Exmouth, Tiverton and other smaller towns where thousands of houses, not bungalows for retirees, are being built. Who are they for???
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2017 17:36:15 GMT
Some of the analysis on this thread chimes with things I've noticed in my experiences.
I would add that many people from across the UK and abroad come to work in London temporarily and want to "feel" what the city is like, house/flat shares are very common in zones 1-3 where people would like to save or simply enjoy the convenience of living in inner-london. The internet has had a massive impact on this, sites such as spareroom have contributed to the rise of flat shares.
I myself grew up in inner London and am in a "blue collar" job on the railway, many people in the industry I've noticed have moved out to the home counties and have managed to find reasonably priced properties there. I myself would rather put up with flat sharing until I can fork out for a small flat in inner London and have a multitude of frequent transport options around the clock than have to do the long slog in on a mainline train. I don't know how people do it everyday.
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Oct 9, 2017 19:19:35 GMT
The economy stinks! Personal debt is up, real earnings are down or stagnant for most, growth is stagnant, the cost of living keeps increasing. The effects of the effects of the recession are still being felt, and combined with ever decreasing bus provision across most of the country and dubious reliability on some train services for quite a while, surely people just aren't travelling as much.
Whatever the reason for the trend, less mobility has got to be a bad thing? Is traffic usage up or down more or less this year, does anyone know?
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
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Post by castlebar on Oct 9, 2017 20:56:52 GMT
Nothing to do with the economy
More people work from home More people use cycles Elderly people get free bus travel but not free train travel outside London
People buy fewer newspapers. That's nothing to do with the economy. It's to do with changing lifestyles. My philosophy lecturer said "Change is constant - therefore a state of constancy represents a change, so it cannot therefore exist"
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Dom K
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The future is bright
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Post by Dom K on Oct 9, 2017 21:25:00 GMT
Is it simply people being Priced Off The Railway, simply being too expensive to travel by train, as the Government is incentivising car usage by "indefinitely" capping the fuel duty to RPI minus one percent, or something like that perhaps??? Mod Comment: As has been mentioned MANY times before we don’t do politics on here. Also maybe when you make sweeping statements, you should clarify whether it’s opinion or facts. If it’s the latter, then some evidence to back it up would be good. You have passed your post of as fact, where as it’s just your thoughts. Please be mindful how you post.
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Post by revupminster on Oct 9, 2017 21:48:09 GMT
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Post by trt on Oct 10, 2017 11:33:41 GMT
Counter urbanisation, please. Let's not bring race into this when it's quite clearly inappropriate, actually wrong and contrary to the mood and ethos of DD.
Counter urbanisation should lead to an increase in rail travel, certainly within the South East, as has happened for decades now. As others have pointed out, we will have to see more data points, comparably collected, in order to determine if there's a trend. It's interesting that the house price indexers are suggesting drops in London rents and purchase prices.
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Post by snoggle on Oct 10, 2017 12:19:20 GMT
Is it simply people being Priced Off The Railway, simply being too expensive to travel by train, as the Government is incentivising car usage by "indefinitely" capping the fuel duty to RPI minus one percent, or something like that perhaps??? I don't think there is any demonstrable evidence *yet* that people are being priced off the railway. If that were correct I'd have expected to have seen a trend emerge before now given policy for many many years has been to increase the farepayers' share of industry funding. The railway has had almost 10 straight years of growth largely off the back of the economy doing well and low interest rates allowing people to have more disposable income. More of the TOCs have introduced online ticket offers with a view to getting "bums on seats" off peak and that includes many of the traditional South East commuter TOCs. The key influences on rail travel demand are the state of the economy and employment levels (especially Central London employment). Since the 2008 recession both of these factors have had a positive trend. Even during that recession rail usage was relatively resilient and didn't drop as far as in previous recessions. In respect of the latest numbers I think a lot of people, on both sides of the "privatised railway" debate, have tried to seize on them as either indicating a crisis or that we remain on the same path to the "sunny uplands" of ever increasing usage. The more honest position to take is that no one really knows yet what the *national* picture is. I dare say some analysts in some of the TOCs who will review daily, weekly, monthly numbers in fine detail for their companies have a view as to what is or is not happening on the parts of the rail system. However that will still be relatively uncertain because you need more data over a longer period covering known fluctuations in the data to be able to reach a reliable conclusion as to the trend. Furthermore it won't emerge into the public domain because of the risk of damage to share prices in the TOC owning groups. My own hunch is that we may be seeing the start of a change in a number of economic variables for a whole load of reasons but we cannot reach any firm conclusions yet as to whether we will see continued modest growth, a plateauing of economic activity or a recession. There are obvious reasons why a lot of people are hedging their decisions in a number of areas and why that may be contributing to some slowing of economic activity. 2018 has the potential to be a very interesting year as several large rail projects come to fruition then with new services being introduced / long term disruption ending. New rolling stock for several companies also offer some prospect of new growth (assuming the new trains are reliable and attractive to passengers). Unravelling the effect of this alongside everything else will be fun!
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Post by trt on Oct 10, 2017 12:34:47 GMT
2018 has the potential to be a very interesting year as several large rail projects come to fruition then with new services being introduced / long term disruption ending. New rolling stock for several companies also offer some prospect of new growth (assuming the new trains are reliable and attractive to passengers). Unravelling the effect of this alongside everything else will be fun! And there's certainly a first and a game changer in CrossRail. Through trains under London. I'm curious as to why East-West was the first, though, as I would have thought there was more demand for North-South through services. Is it that there aren't any surface level chords at all available to bypass London (but still come close) on the East-West, whereas there is the Willesden/Acton route and the ThamesLink line? I know these aren't used as much as they could or probably should be (I remember getting a no-change Intercity from Manchester to Brighton during my university days). I am quite intrigued to see just if the actual demand for these new projects matches that in the business case.
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Post by revupminster on Oct 10, 2017 12:36:30 GMT
To say it is not race, is hiding one's head in the sand. People are voting with their feet. The jobs are following them. London used to have the largest manufacturing base in the country. Now nearly all gone leaving only a service industry.
An area I know well is Paignton, South Devon, once home to a giant electronic firm employing 5000 people. They even built houses for their employees. It closed some 20 years ago leaving the NHS as the biggest employer. New smaller electronic firms are beginning to re-establish in the same area spurred on by the South Devon College which is just short of university status and Torbay's three grammar schools. Paignton has a number of primary schools one of which has 700 pupils; the biggest in all Devon and they do not receive the money schools in London receive.
One of the reasons there is so much house building going on (6000 houses over ten years). Torbay is included in the Devon Metro.
People living in London have no idea what is going on outside. Pensioners in particular with Freedom passes live in fantasy land compared to their counterparts outside London such as Epping or Thurrock. The Brexit vote, which was not on party lines, so should be alright to mention here, reflected this.
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Post by trt on Oct 10, 2017 12:42:09 GMT
To say it is not race, is hiding one's head in the sand. Sorry. Completely failed to understand your point there. I must have sand in my ears.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 10, 2017 14:41:48 GMT
I'm curious as to why East-West was the first, though, as I would have thought there was more demand for North-South through services. . It wasn't the first though. Thameslink beat it by 30 years, and also has its upgrade due for completion next year. But TfL ignore it. Despite the fact that a key link (the Widened Lines) was built by the Metropolitan Railway, and TfL owns one of the stations. (Can you imagine a Paris Metro map only showing RER line A and part of line B, because the other three-and-a-half lines are operated by SNCF rather than RATP?) (I remember getting a no-change Intercity from Manchester to Brighton during my university days). There are possible east-west links as well, such as the Nunhead chord and the North London line (which briefly hosted an Ipswich- Basingstoke service). But all such links are now full of Overground services. I also remember the Man-Bri services, but they lost out to the faster and more frequent options via the central London termini, and after a few years of running on routes further out of London to provide links between the southern home counties and the north of England (e.g via the Blackwater Valley line) they have now faded out altogether.
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