Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2017 11:03:21 GMT
It seems certain that Crossrail will extend to Gravesend or Ebbsfleet in the next several years, when this happens how would SE services be affected?
There's talk of curtailing all SE Trains at Abbey Wood but this seems unlikely, especially since a large proportion of Medway and Gravesend commuters travel to Woolwich and Greenwich, I can see Belvedere, Erith and Slade Green becoming Crossrail served only with SE Trains running fast from Dartford to Abbey Wood (possibly calling only at Greenhithe only too when Crossrail reaches Gravesend)
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Post by toby on Sept 25, 2017 13:00:41 GMT
It'll be four tracked and continue on as now. There'll just not be any all-stopping trains from Dartford inwards on the mainline. Maybe some more semi fasts on the loop.
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Sept 25, 2017 14:00:41 GMT
Something of an interesting question, as surely there is not the money nor demand for every station along the route to be reconstructed or include extra platforms. Further, The final layout of Dartford station are will be interesting as one of the South Eastern planning documents was talking about four tracking the approach from the west, and rejigging the sidings to the east. Is there space for 6 tracks from the west, six platforms, four tracks to the east, plus sidings? IIRC, no.
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Post by snoggle on Sept 25, 2017 14:03:50 GMT
It seems certain that Crossrail will extend to Gravesend or Ebbsfleet in the next several years, when this happens how would SE services be effected? There's talk of curtailing all SE Trains at Abbey Wood but this seems unlikely, especially since a large proportion of Medway and Gravesend commuters travel to Woolwich and Greenwich, I can see Belvedere, Erith and Slade Green becoming Crossrail served only with SE Trains running fast from Dartford to Abbey Wood (possibly calling only at Greenhithe only too when Crossrail reaches Gravesend) All we know is that there is space for extra tracks beside the SE ones. No one knows with any certainty what will happen to service patterns. One thing that probably is certain is that commuters (and their political representatives) will launch a moaning campaign demanding that "their" train service (you know, the one they personally own and uniquely fund  ) be preserved in aspic so they don't have to get out of bed 5 minutes earlier than now. (Sorry but people moaning about preserving S London's rail services and patterns / frequencies just drives me mad). Nothing will ever get better unless someone is prepared to do something radical about commuter train services in South London. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2017 15:38:47 GMT
It seems certain that Crossrail will extend to Gravesend or Ebbsfleet in the next several years, when this happens how would SE services be effected? There's talk of curtailing all SE Trains at Abbey Wood but this seems unlikely, especially since a large proportion of Medway and Gravesend commuters travel to Woolwich and Greenwich, I can see Belvedere, Erith and Slade Green becoming Crossrail served only with SE Trains running fast from Dartford to Abbey Wood (possibly calling only at Greenhithe only too when Crossrail reaches Gravesend) All we know is that there is space for extra tracks beside the SE ones. No one knows with any certainty what will happen to service patterns. One thing that probably is certain is that commuters (and their political representatives) will launch a moaning campaign demanding that "their" train service (you know, the one they personally own and uniquely fund ) be preserved in aspic so they don't have to get out of bed 5 minutes earlier than now. (Sorry but people moaning about preserving S London's rail services and patterns / frequencies just drives me mad). Nothing will ever get better unless someone is prepared to do something radical about commuter train services in South London. I shouldn't think that Belvedere, Erith or Slade Green commuters would be against losing SE Trains in favour of potentially 6 or 8 Crossrail trains per hour taking them directly into the Docklands, City and West End, considering that these stations are normally at the bottom of the pile. I think 4 tracking could be an option however the Crossrail trains can be fitted with 3rd wheel shoes for the purpose of extending it to Gravesend eventually, so maybe they'll go with this option. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2017 15:42:59 GMT
It seems certain that Crossrail will extend to Gravesend or Ebbsfleet in the next several years, when this happens how would SE services be effected? There's talk of curtailing all SE Trains at Abbey Wood but this seems unlikely, especially since a large proportion of Medway and Gravesend commuters travel to Woolwich and Greenwich, I can see Belvedere, Erith and Slade Green becoming Crossrail served only with SE Trains running fast from Dartford to Abbey Wood (possibly calling only at Greenhithe only too when Crossrail reaches Gravesend) All we know is that there is space for extra tracks beside the SE ones. No one knows with any certainty what will happen to service patterns. One thing that probably is certain is that commuters (and their political representatives) will launch a moaning campaign demanding that "their" train service (you know, the one they personally own and uniquely fund ) be preserved in aspic so they don't have to get out of bed 5 minutes earlier than now. (Sorry but people moaning about preserving S London's rail services and patterns / frequencies just drives me mad). Nothing will ever get better unless someone is prepared to do something radical about commuter train services in South London. Also they're being radical with South London's trains, Thameslink will be invading the Dartford routes from 2018 |
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Post by snoggle on Sept 25, 2017 16:09:29 GMT
All we know is that there is space for extra tracks beside the SE ones. No one knows with any certainty what will happen to service patterns. One thing that probably is certain is that commuters (and their political representatives) will launch a moaning campaign demanding that "their" train service (you know, the one they personally own and uniquely fund ) be preserved in aspic so they don't have to get out of bed 5 minutes earlier than now. (Sorry but people moaning about preserving S London's rail services and patterns / frequencies just drives me mad). Nothing will ever get better unless someone is prepared to do something radical about commuter train services in South London. Also they're being radical with South London's trains, Thameslink will be invading the Dartford routes from 2018 The only reference of any substance to extending Crossrail beyond Abbey Wood was in the most recent South East rail study (prob wrong name) by Network Rail. In one of the volumes this set out an indicative route. It is my understanding that there is safeguarding for the widened alignment beyond Abbey Wood. Crossrail dislike having to share tracks with other services so the aim for any extension which will need an intensive service level will be separate tracks. I am sorry but the Thameslink thing is not radical. It is a change born out of operational convenience and results in the loss of an existing service that is mostly replaced by the Thameslink service. Worse the Thameslink service will require pin point adherence to the timetable so that trains arrive at the junctions between the Thameslink tracks east of Lon Bridge and then the next junction with the South Eastern tracks. This is because the diveunder tracks can just about cope with a 12 car train and really trains need to arrive when expected to get a clear run through. The track layout was not designed in the expectation of 2 such train movements per hour in each direction but we've got this because East Croydon and its approaches can't handle the expected number of Thameslink (and other trains) without serious risk of unreliability. All the Thameslink service does is move the City "terminal" from Cannon St to Blackfriars (and offers a service north thereof). I don't view this as very radical at all. I would have preferred to have had a more frequent Thameslink to South Eastern service as part of the original scheme but that was actually scrapped a long while back! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2017 19:08:42 GMT
Also they're being radical with South London's trains, Thameslink will be invading the Dartford routes from 2018 The only reference of any substance to extending Crossrail beyond Abbey Wood was in the most recent South East rail study (prob wrong name) by Network Rail. In one of the volumes this set out an indicative route. It is my understanding that there is safeguarding for the widened alignment beyond Abbey Wood. Crossrail dislike having to share tracks with other services so the aim for any extension which will need an intensive service level will be separate tracks. I am sorry but the Thameslink thing is not radical. It is a change born out of operational convenience and results in the loss of an existing service that is mostly replaced by the Thameslink service. Worse the Thameslink service will require pin point adherence to the timetable so that trains arrive at the junctions between the Thameslink tracks east of Lon Bridge and then the next junction with the South Eastern tracks. This is because the diveunder tracks can just about cope with a 12 car train and really trains need to arrive when expected to get a clear run through. The track layout was not designed in the expectation of 2 such train movements per hour in each direction but we've got this because East Croydon and its approaches can't handle the expected number of Thameslink (and other trains) without serious risk of unreliability. All the Thameslink service does is move the City "terminal" from Cannon St to Blackfriars (and offers a service north thereof). I don't view this as very radical at all. I would have preferred to have had a more frequent Thameslink to South Eastern service as part of the original scheme but that was actually scrapped a long while back! I agree with you entirely. I was being facetious 😜 I'm not entirely against Thameslink, I'm against the fact that its basically an all stations service, rather than a Gravesend-Greenhithe-Dartford-Abbey Wood-Woolwich Arsenal-Greenwich-London Bridge semi fast service. Crossrail will be the radical solution the North Kent/Greenwich lines need. Its possible that the Bakerloo line could be extended over the Bexleyheath line which will alleviate the pressure off the Lewisham area. |
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londoner
thinking on '73 stock
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Post by londoner on Sept 25, 2017 19:55:54 GMT
It seems certain that Crossrail will extend to Gravesend or Ebbsfleet in the next several years, when this happens how would SE services be effected? There's talk of curtailing all SE Trains at Abbey Wood but this seems unlikely, especially since a large proportion of Medway and Gravesend commuters travel to Woolwich and Greenwich, I can see Belvedere, Erith and Slade Green becoming Crossrail served only with SE Trains running fast from Dartford to Abbey Wood (possibly calling only at Greenhithe only too when Crossrail reaches Gravesend) All we know is that there is space for extra tracks beside the SE ones. No one knows with any certainty what will happen to service patterns. One thing that probably is certain is that commuters (and their political representatives) will launch a moaning campaign demanding that "their" train service (you know, the one they personally own and uniquely fund ) be preserved in aspic so they don't have to get out of bed 5 minutes earlier than now. (Sorry but people moaning about preserving S London's rail services and patterns / frequencies just drives me mad). Nothing will ever get better unless someone is prepared to do something radical about commuter train services in South London. I think devolution was a pretty radical idea but we all know the real reasons why it didn't occur... |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2017 21:00:09 GMT
All we know is that there is space for extra tracks beside the SE ones. No one knows with any certainty what will happen to service patterns. One thing that probably is certain is that commuters (and their political representatives) will launch a moaning campaign demanding that "their" train service (you know, the one they personally own and uniquely fund ) be preserved in aspic so they don't have to get out of bed 5 minutes earlier than now. (Sorry but people moaning about preserving S London's rail services and patterns / frequencies just drives me mad). Nothing will ever get better unless someone is prepared to do something radical about commuter train services in South London. I think devolution was a pretty radical idea but we all know the real reasons why it didn't occur... Devolution would've worked wonders for South East London, I think it was proposed that either the Sidcup or Hayes lines would run into Victoria via Lewisham obviously and CS by avoiding Lewisham entirely and the Bexleyheath lines into CX and CS with the Greenwich line running into CS, all the while the North Kent semi fast train to Gillingham and the Sidcup line to Gravesend would've remained South Eastern and ran into CX. But nope Grayling put a spanner in the works for that, but he's only delayed it until the early 2020s, its inevitable for the Hayes, Grove Park and Dartford lines (except for the North Kent line) to become London Overground routes. Either that or one of the Dartford routes (probably the Bexleyheath line) will be taken over by some future extension of the Bakerloo line, personally I also think the Greenwich line as far as Charlton should also become another branch of the Bakerloo if there is money spare, that way the two busiest of the Dartford routes: The North Kent & Sidcup lines will have freer capacity, the Hayes line should stay as Suburban rail. |
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Post by snoggle on Sept 25, 2017 21:48:08 GMT
I think devolution was a pretty radical idea but we all know the real reasons why it didn't occur... Devolution would've worked wonders for South East London, I think it was proposed that either the Sidcup or Hayes lines would run into Victoria via Lewisham obviously and CS by avoiding Lewisham entirely and the Bexleyheath lines into CX and CS with the Greenwich line running into CS, all the while the North Kent semi fast train to Gillingham and the Sidcup line to Gravesend would've remained South Eastern and ran into CX. But nope Grayling put a spanner in the works for that, but he's only delayed it until the early 2020s, its inevitable for the Hayes, Grove Park and Dartford lines (except for the North Kent line) to become London Overground routes. Either that or one of the Dartford routes (probably the Bexleyheath line) will be taken over by some future extension of the Bakerloo line, personally I also think the Greenwich line as far as Charlton should also become another branch of the Bakerloo if there is money spare, that way the two busiest of the Dartford routes: The North Kent & Sidcup lines will have freer capacity, the Hayes line should stay as Suburban rail. I wish I could be quite as optimistic as you. The politics may or may not correct themselves in due time but I don't see any short term fixes. I wouldn't be shocked to see South Eastern awarded for longer than the usual 7 years just as an act of spite by Grayling even though it'll be dressed up in fine words about investment in trains blah blah blah. Shoving the retendering date out until 2028 or so means we are three Mayoral terms on from now barring something spectacular happening. Goodness knows how may governments we will have had by them. There are three other major issues. The first is TfL's finances. They are going to shot to bits by 2020/21. Fares are going to have to rise steeply to try to get TfL's income back in line with its costs. Freezing fares is a fine gimmick but over 4 years it poses horrendous strains because of the divergence from other fare levels and also the effects of inflation (project cost inflation is way higher than cost of living rises for example). TfL will not be in any state to fund grand plans to revolutionise any bit of National Rail. I understand City Hall are trying to persuade DfT to let them have Southern's inner suburban services come the early 2020s. I don't see that one happening. South Eastern needs an awful lot of money spent on it to permit radical service restructuring - can't see where the billions for that will come from. The second is a battle for "hearts and minds". There needs to be some serious engagement with user groups, politicians and rail passengers on routes where TfL would like to take over services. They need to explain their thinking and why "letting go of the past" would be sensible overall in terms of getting high frequency, high capacity regular services. It is not tenable to have direct trains to every conceivable terminal nor is it attractive to have to wait 30-60 mins for services. It just totally puts me off using rail services in South London. TfL has to get a lot of people "on side" so it can immediately kill off the nonsensical media / social media / political campaigns about people's train to work being cancelled and all hell breaking loose. The final issue is with TfL themselves. What still puzzles me is why the submission on South Eastern devolution that went in in 2016 was so much worse than what had previously been produced. There had clearly been a frantic rush to change the document and proposals - presumably to make things fit within less budget following Mr Khan's election. The problem was that the document became rather incoherent, unbelieveable and full of errors. It would not take a reasonably competent DfT official long to tear the thing to shreds. Now the service structure was in some state of flux because of the Thameslink / South Eastern consultation proposals but it's been established for a fair while what would go to Thameslink and what would go back to South Eastern in terms of services on certain routes and some peak time special workings. It's not beyond the capability of TfL's specialists to recognise these possibilities and create options around them. I can only hope that TfL have learnt a very big lesson about how they present proposals to the DfT and we don't have this sort of parlous last minute faffing around happening again. Heck I am borderline clueless on the ins and outs of South Eastern's commuter operation and even I could see there were issues in the document. I mean "duh".   |
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) be preserved in aspic so they don't have to get out of bed 5 minutes earlier than now. (Sorry but people moaning about preserving S London's rail services and patterns / frequencies just drives me mad). Nothing will ever get better unless someone is prepared to do something radical about commuter train services in South London.
