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Post by sawb on Sept 21, 2017 10:40:10 GMT
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Post by trt on Sept 21, 2017 10:50:14 GMT
Well that's a nice one to quote to the Daily Failers next time there's a strike about dispatch methods and safety critical second staffing. Thank you!
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Post by t697 on Sept 21, 2017 20:09:01 GMT
I've always found it odd that DLR trains have door edge rubbers so different to those on LUL trains. The DLR ones appear to be aimed at draught and noise exclusion with their relatively intricate interlocking shapes. The shapes seem to invite trapping of clothing but still seem flexible enough to allow the doors to be detected closed with such a piece of clothing trapped and difficult or impossible to pull out. The doors don't seem to have a sensitive edge detection system that might mitigate the issue as on the most recent LUL stocks.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2017 20:10:25 GMT
The DLR trains date from around 2007, just before the Sensitive Edge systems were introduced with the 2009 Tube Stock on the Victoria Line.
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Post by countryman on Sept 21, 2017 20:42:53 GMT
The DLR trains date from around 2007, just before the Sensitive Edge systems were introduced with the 2009 Tube Stock on the Victoria Line. Surely this is the introduction date of the newest stock. The majority must be substsntially older.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 21, 2017 21:17:31 GMT
The current fleet consists of 149 units, of which about a third date from 2007. Specifically, 23 x B90 stock, 47 x B92 stock, 24 x B2K stock, and 55 x B07 stock. (The numerical part of the type code indicates the date of introduction). The original P86 and P89 stock (21 units) were moved to Essen in the late 1990s.
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Post by Chris M on Sept 22, 2017 0:46:57 GMT
I am now wondering whether this report is the reason the entrance a the eastern end of platform 9 by the bottom of the Northern line stairs has been closed every time I've been through the station in the last week or so, with a board simply stating "This entrance is closed" (or words to that effect). Previously it has only been closed at peak times.
The incorrect CCTV coverage was a bit worrying though, as the front doors are where I most commonly board the train (being closest to the exit at Mudchute).
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 22, 2017 7:24:37 GMT
The current fleet consists of 149 units, of which about a third date from 2007. Specifically, 23 x B90 stock, 47 x B92 stock, 24 x B2K stock, and 55 x B07 stock. (The numerical part of the type code indicates the date of introduction). The original P86 and P89 stock (21 units) were moved to Essen in the late 1990s. From the report 11. The train involved was scheduled to depart from Bank station at 21:30 hrs and travel to Lewisham. This service was part of a planned series of journeys known as Run 215 and it was operated by a train formed from three cars, numbers 109, 138 and 128. Car 109 was leading at the time of the incident. 12. Train services on DLR are operated using two different types of cars. The older cars, introduced in stages between 1991 and 2001, are designated B90, B92 or B2K. The newer cars, of the type involved in the incident, are designated as B2007 and were introduced from 2008 (figure 2). All of the current DLR rolling stock was constructed by Bombardier Transportation. Each car comprises two individual vehicles, which are articulated
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Post by stapler on Sept 22, 2017 7:58:59 GMT
Don't think it has much to do with safety-critical second persons. It appears from the Report that the driver/train captain operated the doors from the front console when he had no real reason to do so, instead of the standard, and safer, DLR practice of doing so from a passenger door station, where he would have been able to observe properly.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 22, 2017 8:09:48 GMT
I am now wondering whether this report is the reason the entrance a the eastern end of platform 9 by the bottom of the Northern line stairs has been closed every time I've been through the station in the last week or so, with a board simply stating "This entrance is closed" (or words to that effect). Previously it has only been closed at peak times. The incorrect CCTV coverage was a bit worrying though, as the front doors are where I most commonly board the train (being closest to the exit at Mudchute). You could be right 23 The passenger, who was directly involved in this incident, entered platform 9 from the Northern Line Steps at 21:29:50 hrs. She recognised that the train standing in the platform was the one she needed to catch for her destination, and moved towards it with the intention of boarding the train through the leading door The PSA was operating the doors from the Emergency Driving Position (i.e. the bit at the front of the train) rather than from one of the Door Control Panels because they believed there was an unspecified fault with the Automatic Operation. The report says.... 54 To allow observation of the platform and doors of a three-car train at platform 9 at Bank station, two CCTV monitor screens are provided for the use of PSAs located at the EDP. The monitors are located at the entrance to the tunnel at the eastern end of the station. One screen shows an image of the eastern end of the platform and the train. The second screen shows a similar image from the western end of the platform 55 The camera showing the image from the eastern end was incorrectly angled. The effect of this defect was that the image shown on the CCTV monitor did not show the leading door (figure 9). As a result, this door and the adjacent platform area could not be observed by a PSA when located at the EDP. 56 The RAIB has been unable to establish what caused the camera to be incorrectly angled or when it became so. Following the incident, the camera was angled to show the leading door (figure 10). The management of the CCTV system defect at platform 9 is discussed further at paragraph 68. Now here's where it gets fun. The incident occurred on 6 February 2017 but the defect was reported back on 7 November 2016 following an inspection by KAD's "mirrors and monitors" team. On 28 November 2016 a KAD communications technician turned up but as the CCTV camera is an LUL asset he wasn't authorised to adjust the direction it was pointing. His report said that he ‘reset monitor via fused spur’, and ‘Screen working correctly. No further action’ and the item was closed. There was no further inspection until after the incident. I guess because the PSAs rarely used the EDP they didn't notice that one of the CCTV cameras at Bank was wonky and not covering all the doors
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Post by philthetube on Sept 22, 2017 12:29:56 GMT
A couple things in this report really surprise me.
There is no mention of considering fitting sensitive edge doors as on S stock which would prevent this sort of indecent.
There is no mention of camera position checking systems, cameras are checked daily by station supervisors on the underground and there are platform markings which must be visible in the bottom corner of the image to confirm the cameras are correctly aligned.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 22, 2017 13:22:46 GMT
A couple things in this report really surprise me. There is no mention of considering fitting sensitive edge doors as on S stock which would prevent this sort of indecent. There is no mention of camera position checking systems, cameras are checked daily by station supervisors on the underground and there are platform markings which must be visible in the bottom corner of the image to confirm the cameras are correctly aligned. The first is fairly obvious, how much would it cost to fit sensitive edge door systems to 149 DLR trains including the ones that were built between 1991 and 2001? Not cheap I'd imagine. As for the second who's job is it to check the monitors on the DLR platforms at Bank, the LUL station staff or the DLR's "mirrors and monitor" team?
It says in the report "69 LUL owns the CCTV system on the DLR platforms at Bank station. However, KAD is responsible for the detection of defects and, in some cases, the rectification works." so its DLR responsibility to inspect the cameras not the LUL station staff
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Post by trt on Sept 22, 2017 15:43:40 GMT
I do find it odd that there don't seem to be camera alignment boxes marked on the platform as there are elsewhere on the underground.
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Post by Chris M on Sept 22, 2017 17:00:04 GMT
The report did effectively say to make sure the new trains have sensitive edge or something similar.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 23, 2017 5:28:09 GMT
I do find it odd that there don't seem to be camera alignment boxes marked on the platform as there are elsewhere on the underground. DLR isn't "on the underground", its a separate train operator like London Overground, TfL Rail, Great Northern or Chiltern Railways that serves a station operated by London Underground. They don't necessarily use the same working practices as LUL and as it says in the report the cameras on the DLR's platforms are their responsibility
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Post by trt on Sept 23, 2017 5:30:24 GMT
I do find it odd that there don't seem to be camera alignment boxes marked on the platform as there are elsewhere on the underground. DLR isn't "on the underground", its a separate train operator like London Overground, TfL Rail, Great Northern or Chiltern Railways that serves a station operated by London Underground. They don't necessarily use the same working practices as LUL and as it says in the report the cameras on the DLR's platforms are their responsibility I'm aware of that. It just seems like a fairly obvious good idea / best practice.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 23, 2017 5:35:17 GMT
The report did effectively say to make sure the new trains have sensitive edge or something similar. 89 The following recommendations are made4: 1 The intent of this recommendation is to reduce the risk of trap and drag incidents on current Docklands Light Railway rolling stock, caused by clothing and other thin, flexible objects becoming trapped in the closing doors. Keolis Amey Docklands should, in conjunction with Docklands Light Railway Ltd: a) measure the forces required to pull out thin flexible objects trapped by train doors in its current fleet to determine the range of forces, and assess the risk of trap and drag incidents; b) investigate changing the design of the door nosing rubbers on its current fleet to reduce the forces required to pull out trapped objects so that they are in line with good industry practice; and c) where practicable, change the door nosing rubbers on its trains to reduce the pull-out force to the target level identified in (b). 2 The intent of this recommendation is that safety learning from this investigation about minimising extraction forces for objects accidentally trapped in doors, is addressed when new trains for the Docklands Light Railway are specified. Docklands Light Railway Ltd. should ensure that the specification for its forthcoming new trains gives adequate consideration to minimising the force required to remove objects trapped in passenger doors. Particular consideration should be given to the risk of thin, flexible objects such as items of clothing, becoming wrapped around door nosing rubbers. This recommendation could apply to other organisations involved in the specification and procurement of new trains.
I'm not sure if that translates as "new trains must have sensitive edge" or not
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 23, 2017 5:42:53 GMT
DLR isn't "on the underground", its a separate train operator like London Overground, TfL Rail, Great Northern or Chiltern Railways that serves a station operated by London Underground. They don't necessarily use the same working practices as LUL and as it says in the report the cameras on the DLR's platforms are their responsibility I'm aware of that. It just seems like a fairly obvious good idea / best practice. I'd guess that because its so rare that PSAs operate the doors from the EDP and the "mirrors and monitors" team inspections are only a few times every year that the DLR management didn't think it was worthwhile
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Post by 35b on Sept 23, 2017 6:41:05 GMT
I do find it odd that there don't seem to be camera alignment boxes marked on the platform as there are elsewhere on the underground. DLR isn't "on the underground", its a separate train operator like London Overground, TfL Rail, Great Northern or Chiltern Railways that serves a station operated by London Underground. They don't necessarily use the same working practices as LUL and as it says in the report the cameras on the DLR's platforms are their responsibility But only allowed to be worked on by LUL staff.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 23, 2017 7:15:21 GMT
DLR isn't "on the underground", its a separate train operator like London Overground, TfL Rail, Great Northern or Chiltern Railways that serves a station operated by London Underground. They don't necessarily use the same working practices as LUL and as it says in the report the cameras on the DLR's platforms are their responsibility But only allowed to be worked on by LUL staff. The cameras are LUL assets so LUL technicians would carry out any maintenance, repairs, etc. but inspections are carried out by the DLR's "mirrors and monitors" team not the LUL station staff at Bank
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Post by rincew1nd on Sept 23, 2017 9:54:33 GMT
I'd guess that because its so rare that PSAs operate the doors from the EDP... If I have the choice of left or right set of seats at the front of a DLR train I always choose the right set as (in recent years) every time I've sat in the left set I've always been evicted by the Train Captain wanting to use the EDP. Accepting that my travel patterns don't create a statistically robust sample, I'm not sure it's accurate that it's "rare" for doors to be operated from the EDP.
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Post by Chris M on Sept 23, 2017 10:07:18 GMT
As a frequent traveller on DLR trains, I wouldn't say that it was either "rare" for the EDP to be used, but it's not something you see on every or probably even most trips either.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 23, 2017 10:29:08 GMT
Okay then, how many times a year on average would a PSA operate the doors from the EDP at Bank Platform 9? I have no idea how often PSAs drive the trains as I've never worked on them and the only person I know who has been a PSA is my sister-in-law (who I try my best to avoid)
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Post by trt on Sept 23, 2017 10:32:38 GMT
Okay then, how many times a year on average would a PSA operate the doors from the EDP at Bank Platform 9? I have no idea how often PSAs drive the trains as I've never worked on them and the only person I know who has been a PSA is my sister-in-law (who I try my best to avoid) That's no excuse for shoddily adjusted cameras and poor maintenance procedures. I can't believe they'd close a job when the fault hadn't been dealt with. OK, actually I can because it happens all the time, but it shouldn't.
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Post by Chris M on Sept 23, 2017 10:37:35 GMT
Operating trains from the EDP at Bank is now prohibited according to the report, but even before then it wasn't that common in my experience (although I'm not a daily user of the station, "occasionally" is probably accurate). I agree with trt though that this is no excuse. It doesn't matter how often a safety critical system is used, it should be maintained so that it is correctly working for when it is needed.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 23, 2017 10:45:31 GMT
I thought the report said that closing the doors from the EDP at Bank was prohibited. If you had a fault on the automatic operation at Bank how would you move a train without using the EDP?
I agree, the fault shouldn't have been closed but that wasn't what we were discussing. The question was why the DLR doesn't have markings painted on its platforms to check that the cameras are aligned correctly
PS I will no be absent for several hours because West Ham are on TV and beer does not drink itself
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